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Thread: Bitcoin

  1. #1

    Bitcoin

    There is no where else to post this and I'll leave it to the moderators to decide whether this is too far astray. By way of disclaimer I now have a rather small stake in Bitcoin and Dogecoin as I built a machine to mine them starting at the New Year, mining rewards are in part a function of how many people are mining so boy is it a risk to mention that to this group

    The following link is the best synopsis of the pro bitcoin position I have read, it was written by Marc Andresson who invented the Netscape browser maybe 15 years ago, which despite a few new bells and whistles looks pretty much the same as the browser I use now.

    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/...tcoin-matters/

    I will add my two bits to this article about things unsaid. 1) Bitcoin is a superior form of money, it does not like the dollar come into existence as a note of debt upon which "interest" must be paid but as a credit, If, like the dollar (errr, federal reserve note) bringing something into existence from nothing, which people have to pay interest on to use does not meet the definition of usury I don't know what does. Bitcoin also allows for much more rapid transactions with almost no transaction fees. 2) Unlike the PC or internet which Mr Andressen mentions the bitcoin protocol presents an obvious threat to established monied interests. That pretty much sums it up in my mind, it's better and it is obviously threatening.

    When I first read on this maybe a year ago I said that has to be stomped out, it just can't be. If I had been a bit more idealistic and a bit less cynical I would be a lot more wealthy today, It was when the Chinese central bank declared a couple months ago that Chinese banks could not exchange bitcoin for Chinese yuan and bitcoin only dropped 50 percent that I said I have to get involved with this and now. China is the second largest economy and at the time had the largest bitcoin -> national currency exchange in the world, I really think this was intended to be the deathknell, instead bitcoin has bounced back more than half way from what it lost at the announcement. This is funny, because if the banks say, we won't play and everyone says, fine FU, what do they do to keep the royal scam going. So I would guess right now they are looking for weaknesses in the technology, talking the idea down and/or looking for ways to co-opt it. As it becomes more and more widespread, they could be in the position to use a line from a general in an obscure Monty Python skit of saying "OK, surround everyone, with everything we've got." It still all strikes me as very much a longshot but man is it something needed. There are many alternate currencies (and may the best currency win), these are the ones worth mining with homebuilt computers. Dogecoin (nicest, most witty community on the Reddit forums) just sponsored the Jamaican bobsled team to the Olympics in two days of fundraising. Yes I own a few hundred dollars worth of Doge, but these young pups just keep deciding to just have fun and do good with Doge, it is honestly heartwarming and so I'll close with their mantra, Doge coin TO THE MOON!!!
    Last edited by ZPDM; 01-24-2014 at 06:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    if you think the Elites are going to stand around and watch thier power base erode, think again. bit coin is subject to confiscation and shutdown by government entities. most likely it will soon be transaction taxed by most goevernments or central banks like the Fed in the U.S. you can also lose it thru hard drive crashes ore system upgrades where your vault is lost or forgotten. bitcoin is good for short term transactions only. its no different than any forex traded currency, there is leverage to be had, but please be careful.... would rather have gold, silver and commodities....

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ZPDM View Post
    Yes I own a few hundred dollars worth of Doge, but these young pups just keep deciding to just have fun and do good with Doge, it is honestly heartwarming and so I'll close with their mantra, Doge coin TO THE MOON!!!

    shibainu-puppy-cam.jpg

    Getting my space suit ready.

  4. #4
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    IF these cryptocurrencies can keep moving forward, it is the most important revolution in the history of mankind.

    The Federal Reserve (and all central banking systems) method is scribed on tablets in ancient Sumerian Cuneiform - it's that old.

    Debt goes up, value goes down and debt is on the shoulders of the citizens of the country. It is not about money, but about power and control and turning the masses into slaves.

    This cryptocurrency movement is the first thing in human history (that we know of) that has allowed people to seamlessly transition to a wide spread monetary system that is not in the "money changer's" hands.

    Around 100 cities in the USA accept bitcoin for utility payments, just got an email yesterday that Tiger Direct now accepts bitcoin, in France - you can receive your salary in Bitcoin, Russian govt and others are embracing it as a valid currency, etc.

    Microsoft, Apple, the guy behind investing in Twitter, etc... are all putting many millions into Bitcoin and the whole crypto currency movement. In the near future, email programs (outlook, thunderbird, etc...), browsers, every smartphone will all come stock with a built in Bitcoin and/or other cryptocoin interface to easily send and receive the coin. I don't think it is going away. JP Morgan is coming out with their own crypto currency - of course that is one to be leary of. Point is to get away from the banks, not support them even with their own crytp coins.

    The getting is good right now, especially when there are no tax liabilities for the coins. If you cash it out in dollars, then you have capital gains taxes, but its getting to the point that you don't need to cash it out in dollars or any other fiat currency because there is almost nothing you can't get with Bitcoin.

    Bitcoin is estimated to become 1-10% of the entire world currency supply meaning the projection for 1 bitcoin, which is about $800 now will be worth $100,000 to $1,000,000 per coin - and Litecoin is estimated to become up to $3000 per coin at the max. That is both when the last Bitcoin is created at a limit of 21,000,000 coins and Litecoin is at 84,000,000 coins - about 25 years from now - at least for Bitcoin.

    At minimum, it would be a good idea to at least have a couple Bitcoin and then leave it there for years down the road. Obviously it is a bit of speculation but so is the idea that there will be food at the grocery store tomorrow, but with the potential increase in the value down the road, it is crazy to not at least have a little bit. Print out your public and secret key and put it in a fireproof document box where you would keep passports, wills, etc... don't risk leaving that kind of thing on any computer.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    if you think the Elites are going to stand around and watch thier power base erode, think again. bit coin is subject to confiscation and shutdown by government entities. most likely it will soon be transaction taxed by most goevernments or central banks like the Fed in the U.S. you can also lose it thru hard drive crashes ore system upgrades where your vault is lost or forgotten. bitcoin is good for short term transactions only. its no different than any forex traded currency, there is leverage to be had, but please be careful.... would rather have gold, silver and commodities....

    Tom C
    Tom,

    I certainly can understand your skepticism and caution however, the more I read the more I would just say the elites more than have their work cut out for them and who they are up against are the same sort that maintain the back ends on their banks. Regarding some of your points 1) I think they would love to shut it down, how? There are millions of people spread throughout the world mining and transacting with it every day, it has the same off switch as the internet. 2) Confiscation/loss/hard drive crash, while I like gold/silver and commodities gold actually does have a history of fairly recent confiscation and banning in the U.S. Lets say you have some bitcoin, you could have five copies on five thumb drives in two cities and as Aaron pointed out a paper copy in a vault. If they don't have your password, they might take a physical thumb drive but they can't spend it. That can't happen with gold. Or, if you are worried instead that your password might be compromised you can take one copy of your "wallet" split it into five pieces so that only someone finding all five pieces would have a usable wallet, can't do that with gold. Or one more, suppose you are concerned that someone might wish to confiscate your bitcoin, well two minutes before they knock on the door you send it to your cousin Balin in the misty mountains. Bitcon transactions are pseudoanyonymous, which, while I am not positive, I believe means basically they are tied to an IP address, so what if Balin just happened to be on the Wifi hotspot at the Misty Mountains coffee shop when he received your payment? Taxation, that's fine as it will just validate it further and likely why the US IRS isn't saying anything one way or another. A sales tax or transaction tax would be very difficult to implement especially over so many countries but would be a threat to some of the potential good of bitcoin. The one point I would really disagree with you on is that bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are no different than any forex traded currency, there has never really been, that I know of, anything like this before. As Mr. Andressen touched on it solves the problem of how do you exchange a coin between two people who don't know each other without a central authority validating the coin and transaction, it goes all the way back to Ceasar's face on the coin and earlier. Well with cryptography you can validate that a bitcoin is a bitcoin (that part is not new and is used for instance to validate credit card transactions) but without a central authority keeping a ledger how do keep someone from sending the same "bitcoin" a thousand times over. That's the new part and it is a public ledger on every machine the whole ledger is compared thousands or millions of times over and only one transaction of a bitcoin can occur in a "block". Every few minutes a "block" of transactions gets locked down through encryption, now it can't be changed, it gets looked back at in the next block and confirmed and locked down again, and a third time and a fourth, or more, only then is the transaction accepted. The "central" authority is the network of computers validating the ledger.

    As for investing, well in some ways I'm not, I just paid for the parts for a computer, if things hold together for a few months it will have paid for itself and the rest will be a little bit of profit each month, until the computer is obsolete or heaven forbid some problem crashes the cryptocurrencies. I would just say though that when I checked coinmap at the start of the year there were 2,200 or so brick and mortar businesses accepting bitcoin (the real number is much higher as this is just a fun website someone started) as of today it is 2808. So at least from one datapoint, there is a 20-25 percent or more month on month growth at the moment with plenty of room to grow. That doesn't necessarily, mean the value of bitcoin will go up especially as transactions can happen very quickly, but if more people want to use it and there isn't that much supply being released, it stands to reason it would have to be worth more against goods and services or dollars. But who knows.

    I'll give one more example about this, over on the Dogecoin Reddit forum, they built a "tipbot" where you can tip any other user a few dogecoins (like 2 cents or a nickel) if you like their comment. They are going crazy with it over there and tipping all over the forum, as someone said "can you imagine when we can tip youtube videos". This is a whole nother unforseen element, an entirely new way to monetize content using secure, rapid microtransactions. In fact when someone talks down Dogecoin, they'll often just leave the person a tip, meaning he can accept it and lose credibility or refuse it. I'll shut up the last thing I am trying to do is ever tell anyone anything about investing, I think I made my point though that I am excited about these crytocurrencies and think they are a positive development.
    Last edited by ZPDM; 01-26-2014 at 02:51 AM.

  6. #6
    Bluestix,

    Wow! much cute, so no threat to anyone, how money. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileogecoin_alternate_logo.png
    Last edited by ZPDM; 01-26-2014 at 02:40 AM.

  7. #7
    Aaron,

    I agree (well certainly the most important monetary revolution), and you sound even more enthusiastic than me. Why did I think you might like bitcoin? I'm following the dogecoin forum and I thought they might have been exaggerating this guys credentials but evidently Paul Bucheit did develop both gmail and Addsense, he just tweeted, "much amaze. so future. such invest dogecoin now. wow. to the moon!" https://twitter.com/paultoo It's all too crazy in a good way. Something tells me, if a wrench isn't thrown in the works, this time next year you will likely be monetizing excellent content and helping others monetize excellent content in Bitcoin, maybe Litecoin and just maybe Dogecoin. I'd certainly buy something here with bitcoin or a few doges. Let's keep our fingers crossed, figuratively speaking.
    Last edited by ZPDM; 01-26-2014 at 05:49 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    z,

    wow that was a long post!!! I did however read the whole thing. you make a lot of good points. remember the internet is controlled by someone and its not you and me.... the flow the NSA is monitoring everything now including all transactions, and there is no such thing as encryption that cannot be broken with enough processing power. like I said it has its place, and the reason I posted it is that it's just like forex is that it is traded and leveraged against world currencies all the time. now I realize the people that have created bitcoin have done a great job and its fantastic to use, but when the grid is gone and there is no electronic means of transferring wealth, I can still use a pre 65 silver coin for barter, or a bucket of rice, or some seed to grow a garden. that's why I prefer hard assets to digital ones for security. play the bitcoin game and play the fiat currency game its all good and its our medium of exchange for now, but look at the Weimar republic and you can see where the u.s. is headed.

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    z,

    wow that was a long post!!! I did however read the whole thing. you make a lot of good points. remember the internet is controlled by someone and its not you and me.... the flow the NSA is monitoring everything now including all transactions, and there is no such thing as encryption that cannot be broken with enough processing power. like I said it has its place, and the reason I posted it is that it's just like forex is that it is traded and leveraged against world currencies all the time. now I realize the people that have created bitcoin have done a great job and its fantastic to use, but when the grid is gone and there is no electronic means of transferring wealth, I can still use a pre 65 silver coin for barter, or a bucket of rice, or some seed to grow a garden. that's why I prefer hard assets to digital ones for security. play the bitcoin game and play the fiat currency game its all good and its our medium of exchange for now, but look at the Weimar republic and you can see where the u.s. is headed.

    Tom C
    T,

    You've interacted with me enough on the forum to know once I get going I just like watching myself type I disagree with Aaron that this could be the biggest revolution, because whether you are talking bitcoins, fiat or silver coins it is still just a represenation of value. Using energy "more wisely" however, and a cold room is suddenly a warm room, sort of a big deal in the States at the moment, or water is pumped for a garden to grow. That said, the chance for a new system of currency to get out from under a corrupt, usurious, monopolistic banking system, priceless.

  10. #10
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPDM View Post
    I disagree with Aaron that this could be the biggest revolution, because whether you are talking bitcoins, fiat or silver coins it is still just a represenation of value.
    The crypto coin movement is not just a monetary revolution - it is about freedom. As we all know, it doesn't matter who makes the laws, it is who makes the money.

    "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws." Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

    This is the first time in recorded human history that the average person can do business or conduct other transactions without the money makers sticking their fingers in it.

    These crypto currencies are 100% debt free, there is no usury fee attached, it's immune to inflation in the common sense that a fixed amount of bitcoin will ever be available and by the time a very large market establishes itself - demand for bitcoin will be through the roof while the supply is always fixed meaning the value will always be high, it is a true free market where only supply/demand dictates the value - they can't create more at the stroke of a pen or by some vote in congress, transactions can occur anonymously and encrypted, there is a 0% fraud rate out of billions of transactions - nobody will be able to modify the blockchain on every computer in the world, etc...

    The #1 problem in the world for those in the USA is the Federal Reserve - for others in the world, their own central bank whether they want to see that or not. This crypto coin movement takes power away from the #1 problem in the world and is more effective, peaceful and powerful than a bloody revolution.

    The #1 solution to destroying a dictatorship (and always will be) is to simply WITHDRAW SUPPORT. The Cryptocoin movement satisfies that exact requirement, which allows anyone to withdraw support of the central banking system in a very seamless and peaceful way.

    Aside from religious or other "revolutions" (Christianity, whatever...) - this actually unites people as it satisfies the needs of everyone no matter their religious, philosophical, etc... beliefs are.

    I'm all for gold and silver but diversification is a must.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    I'll propose 2 conspiracy theories I came up with in regards to crypto coins - LOL

    1. The Annunaki created it and not Satoshi - this is to transition the world to crypto coins so people don't see much value in gold. Everyone dumps gold as worthless so in the end, the Annunaki comes in and scoops it all up leaving us with our crypto coins. Peaceful, slick and we never saw it coming.

    2. The NSA created Bitcoin in order to develop the largest code breaking system in the world. Later, they will create their own crypto coin, which will actually be chains of codes they want broken and they only way to do it is to have thousands of miners around the world use their collective computing power to solve the problems. So, miners will actually be getting paid by the NSA to do their code breaking without ever knowing it.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

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