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The Real History of the Ed Gray Motor by Mark McKay, E.E.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by BroMikey
    Someone else must have done some work thinking about this?
    There are a few that made a motor spin using the concept I describe.

    Here's my path on this whole Ed Gray (really Marvin Cole) method.

    I read Peter's book and Secrets of Cold War Technology. Soon after John Bedini released his old notes from his visits to Gray's shop. The whole kicker for me was the reverse diode that John showed, which was opposite from the triode position in Gray's patent. The way John shows it - that is the only thing that ever made sense to me but unfortunately, most people (not just most but virtually everyone) could simply not get past the per-conceived idea that the diode is a "blocking diode" in that position so the HV could not jump to the LV rod. I find it hard to believe that nobody knows how a diode works and I find it even harder to believe that I was the only one that actually did the experiments that showed that how John showed it makes complete sense.

    This video shows that the diodes in this reversed position opposing the HV rod absolutely are not blocking anything.

    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

    Comment


    • #17
      If you place a diode on the positive of a battery and use a multimeter and place the ground of the v meter to the ground and positive to the cathode of the diode, you will see the battery voltage (minus any voltage drop). The only reason you see the voltage on the end of the diode is because in this situation, the diode is 100% completely open - therefore, if there is a common ground with a HV source, that HV will see a complete open path to ground through that diode since the diode is completely open. It is only AFTER the diode gets hit with that higher voltage on the cathode than what is on the anode will it shut off and start blocking - only after but not before. Therefore, the diode is not a blocking diode, gives an easy path for the HV back to common ground THEN the diode closes and the HV will have to find a lower resistance path to ground, which will be the 2nd gap - over to the grid, through the inductor back to ground.

      Once some people started posting experiments on the "water sparkplug" deal - someone told me to look at it at overunity.com. I saw it and saw that the explanations of what was happening were completely ludicrous. Their LV source was from AC from the wall or from an inverter. So many people claimed the "effect" of the plasma blast came from the AC - this was all an attempt to replicate S1R's water powered car claims. His schematic showed rectified inverter output over a gap with low voltage. But what I saw from the bridge arrangement in relation to the rest of the circuit was the opposing diode concept, which they absolutely did not believe when I pointed it out.

      Therefore, to prove once and for all that the plasma effect didn't have anything to do with AC from the wall being involved, I did this experiment:



      I charged the cap and disconnected the cap from the power supply proving indisputably that this special plasma effect isn't coming from the wall AC. My explanation even way back then is still taking about the HV jumping into the diodes to the LV, closing diodes off the moving over the gap.

      The water mist explodes on that high speed accelerated plasma discharge but then reassembles to water and shrinks in volume - similar to common "hho" gas. No real thermal explosive energy. So I was thinking if I put a choke on the ground, perhaps I can limit the current and thus limit the electrons at the gap to make it harder for the h and o to reassemble to water - thereby making it more unstable and perhaps allowing for a real thermal explosion.
      Aaron Murakami





      You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

      Comment


      • #18
        What did that experiment with the choke do? It made the plasma go SILENT and it turned GREEN.

        Here is that experiment:



        The camera doesn't do it justice. The event is so fast that it hardly captures the light blast or the loud pop.

        In any case, you can see absolutely the plasma went silent while making the same light, etc... But with an inductors, it can make sound if some variables changed - in any case, I don't know anyone else that has ever shown this effect.

        Anyway, what you see is the silent light show here. HOWEVER, you see the wires on the spool bobbing about. As soon as I saw that, I automatically knew I had a motor where the coil was pulsed with this ultra fast cap discharge - discharging faster than normal because of the negative resistance effect of the HV positive pulling on the LV current - emptying the cap faster than normal. Without making energy gain claims - it absolutely is a power increase above and beyond what is normally supposed to be possible. Again - lots of testing needs to be done.

        So, you can see where my idea of turning this into a motor came from. I saw that wire jumping on that "choke" to get the silent plasma and I didn't say anything for months. Nobody liked my explanations that AC was irrelevant to the effect, etc... so I stopped posting anything radically different that what was already posted.

        But you can see that the video with the motor running, it goes quite fast even if it only pulsed about once every 5 rotations because the cap charging couldn't keep up. And, that geometry of coil and rotor is a poor design for the purposes of mechanical work. I'd do long coils with long magnets and if that had 3 sets every 120 degrees, it will be very strong.

        One test I did before was launching a magnet of a certain weight into the air starting with a known amount of joules of potential in the cap. The magnet went higher than that many joules should have allowed it to go. It was a crude test, but nevertheless, was always in the back of my mind that it needs to be tested. Even if there is a common cap discharge to launch the magnet verses the reverse diodes plasma effect, it needs to be studied in my opinion because there is something there lurking in the shadows. lol

        In any case, that is a rough synopsis of my path on the "Gray Tube" trail.

        In the end, everyone else was using secondary power supplies to get the plasma ignition effect but because of my interpretation of what John Bedini showed in his Gray Tube diagrams with the reverse diode, it was completely obvious that I can get the same effect with a single powers supply - one capacitor as the source for the input to the primary of an ignition coil and to simultaneously acts as the LV source in parallel with the gap. In my opinion, this can translate to the "Gray" technology. But as I mentioned before, I want the LV source to be a 12v car battery because if we can get the ultra fast discharge at negative resistance to blend with HV over the same gap, I think we'll see something even more phenomenal.
        Aaron Murakami





        You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

        Comment


        • #19
          Here is the color difference in a good quality still photo with and without an inductor in series:

          whitegreentube.jpg

          So far, I still refuse to go along with any explanation from people that haven't even done the experiments who tell me that the green is because I'm using copper. Well.... without an inductor??? That is copper and it is pure white. In any case, the difference is unmistakable.
          Aaron Murakami





          You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Aaron,

            It reminds me of that Front page(of JB website) and DVD 'Radiant Event' demonstartion by John Bedini where he shorts out a Relativily Large Capacitor charged from a 7-coiler SSG charging it. It is just as similar to the Green Coluor your are refering to.. after the Radiant event Current catches up (seen as 'firey splinters')
            The Discharge ballast sound resonates in the room around..
            Rgds,
            Faraday88.
            Last edited by Faraday88; 06-05-2013, 02:47 AM.
            'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Bormikey/ Aaron,

              if you read Peter's 'Free Energy Secreat of Cold-Electricity' he clearly mentions Tesla'a meticulous Experiments which could produce strange effects at different Pulse rate of the Radiant burst... stinging pain, cooling room environment,.. elevated mood, changing Colours of the Discharge Plasma... and so on.
              i wonder on how to reproduce the Original Tesla Experiment (recall.. Tesla used Magnetically quenched Spark-Gaps to produce very sharpe rise times)...any guesses..
              rgds,
              Faraday88.
              'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi Bromikey,
                You are right..the one you have shown is an immidiate application front that perhaps Tesla was after. but to be prescise..
                i'm refering to the various intricate step that he so meticuleously experimented with after that Famous 'Stinging ray of Blue-Purple' Discharge from the Highly Inductive line that killed one of the operator in the D.C Power station.
                I must say at this point that John and Peter are amoung the few who are gifted to have described this so beautifully.
                and this is what makes very body ponder with Tesla wisdom!!!!(i'm there for sure).
                these duos have that synchronicity to work together and build that wonderous 10 -coiler, definitely a gaint leap in our Mordern age to bring back the Suppressed/forgotten /debunked /curtailed...call all that you will..
                I personally feel that Your efforts in unrevealing the truth is Integrated with you appriciating/and beautifying the works of the SENIORS who are undoubtedly Indespensiable to such Knowledge.
                Rgds,
                Faraday88.
                'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                Comment


                • #23
                  Dear Faraday 88 and BroMikey,

                  If you email me at mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com I shall be glad to send you a 25 page historical paper with everything known about the Gray Converter Element Switching Tube (CEST) to date.

                  My conclusion: It was a failed attempt to provide controlled switching for the anomalous "Cold Electricity" after it had been created in another part of the circuit (specifically those capacitors that are not all capacitor). These CEST devices were remove from the EMA6 by april of 1976. Hackenberger then returned to using the moving contacts on an open air commutator. Four years after that it appears an improved method of using two Ignitrons driven by Thyratrons was developed and used on the last working Free energy Engine.

                  From my study and evaluation The CEST never did produce any energy on its own. It is a 2nd stage control device. However you read the history and come up with your own conclusions. The device was real and seems to have had its roots in early 1972 but was never fully tested under heavy loads until early 1976. After that Gray just needed something to patent in an attempt to sell his "Concept Technology". This failed component was certainly a good candidate because of its novel construction.

                  A lot of researchers have spent considerable time on this particular device. Even so, an electric spark seems to be central to this technology. Just not the one taking place inside the CEST.

                  Mark McKay, PE

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hi Mark,

                    Yes you are right about the Spark -Discharge, and the path that it takes, now having said that, it reflects immediately on the Geometry of the CSET device to do that 90 degree Coversion Switching, as there is a very soild 'Inside'(the Split-Positive Carbon electrodes) and Inverted 'Outside' with many intermidiate Insides and outsides.(the Grids)
                    We know that the Conversion Switching take place between the Load Inductance and the very reaction of that Inductive kick back at right angles to the its path, with the Diode Cathode facing it from the Battery Positive. its some kind of an Enhanced Triggatron for the Radiant Electric Field.
                    the concentric configuration does really matter for Radaint Electric Field, Stan Meyer's Patent show Increased gas production for various Geometry of the excitor plates and being the higest for the Concentric electrodes and least for the Flat Parallel plate.
                    So also the same geometry is used for his water Fuel Injector plugs.
                    How do you say that all of them were not Capacitors..?
                    I have sent you a mail for the 25 page paper, kindly send me the same.
                    Rgds,
                    Faraday88.
                    'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Dear Faraday88,

                      I trust you have received the documents I sent to you. I notice that the CEST paper is 38 pages long and not 25. It seems that once I get going on my favorite subject I tend to be verbose.

                      Right now I consider the "Grids" to be a HV capacitor of low value. I know that John's Field notes show perforated copper cylinders, however the only devices that were ever disclosed to the public were solid structures (1976). Who knows what was going on here. Was it for looks? Someone on that team was very interested in appearance because of the money they spent on dressing up their hardware. For example the 'Start Motor' is a war surplus dynamotor (about 2 HP) that was provided with expensive machined cowlings that were anodized in four (4) colors. These expensive additions provided nothing to the operation of the equipment. Even the EMA0 has five (5) colors of anodized coatings. So, excessive looks has to be taken in consideration when analyzing the Gray material. Just because they had some feature on their equipment doesn't mean that it was fully functional (if at all).

                      Even though Peter has proposed that the "Radiant Energy" is collected at right angles from the source conductor - that process has not been proven. In the Bedini system the anomalous energy is collected from a bifilar winding that runs parallel with the source winding. In the Purple Motor there is an additional coil around the stator coils that also runs parallel to the primary electromagnets. For now we can neither prove or disprove the orientation of energy harvest method. So, keep on open mind to both approaches.

                      In my mind the conversion process is separate from the switching or the mechanical torque conversion. The original "Black Boxes" had a start up feature that few people have talked about. It took 30 seconds to build up the initial charge before the system could be switched to OU operation. Once the circuit was going some kind of feedback process kept the storage capacitor charged and the HV power supply was used to just "Top Off" the capacitor. From my understanding "Cold Electricity" is difficult to control once it is released from the storage capacitor. All of its vast energy is expended on the order of 10 milliseconds, thus the required split electromagnet design of the EMA4. However, enough classical electrostatic charge could be harvested and returned to the capacitors. I suspect this was the primary function of the 'Floating Flux Field' (FFF).

                      I'm sure all that geometry is important for the original CEST and Stan Myer's circuits. For some reason it didn't work in the Gray system at the higher power levels. Perhaps the Stan Myer system was able to over come the limitations that Gray ran into or he was not running anywhere close to the power level that Gray and company were shooting for (75 KW).

                      The claim that the "Capacitors" are not all capacitors is strictly my speculation based upon circumstantial evidence.

                      Mr. Nelson Schlaft said that even in 1980 Gray was purchasing custom capacitors from a vendor in 1000 Oaks, CA. He even described doing business there and having some warranty work done. This firm didn't make their money in a capacitor only service. They made a host of custom circuits that were "canned in oil" for the research industry. Why would Gray pay the $$$ to have custom capacitors made if off the shelf units would work for 1/3 the price?

                      Also, in my circuit analysis of the CSET patent it seems that if the circuit was working with DC pulses as implied by the diode (which ever way you want to switch the polarity) there was no discharge path for the blocking capacitor. After a few cycles that capacitor would saturate and that would be the end of process - providing that we are working with something that obeys classical rules.

                      I maintain that the motors/engines were not the source of the OU. Neither was the switching HV power supply. The conversion from classical electricity to something else had to take place between these two sub systems. There is some evidence that the EMA4 severed as both an energy converter circuit and as a mechanical torque transducer. 120 degrees of rotation was devoted for energy production between the opposing 'Major' electromagnets while the rest of the rotation was used to used to produce torque. Certainly a novel (but clunky) approach. Hackenberger spent a lot of his time attempting to get the energy conversion process out of the rotary subsystem.

                      All of this Gray technology started off with opposing electromagnets with a spark between them (Popping Coils). I really doubt that the coils were wound as a common solenoids. We know from the 1973 photo that the coils used had three leads. If the cores were designed to spark to each other then that makes four (4) conductors to contend with. This could be a transformer of some sort. I rather like the idea that he had bifilar windings that were wired to act as two opposing Pulse Forming Networks. That configuration might reduce the inductive current limiting problems that standard mass driver designs run into. But the real action must have had something to do with the dynamic arc or the impact of the compressed and opposed magnetic fields upon it.

                      It appears that the harvest circuit has to be separate and independent from the excitation circuit. The attached photo (courtesy of Reggie Garcia) demonstrates what I'm thinking. In this photo the rotor has been removed to disclose the novel "coil within a coil". The slip ring is still attached and gets in the way of the view but you can still make out what is going on. I suspect that an equal amount of energy could have been harvested from the rotor electromagnets but there was just not enough room to install these harvest windings.

                      Mark McKay, PE
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi Mark,
                        First of all Thanks a million for the two Papers that you shared, yes i received them via mail.
                        My speculation on this Technology is puerly on the simple Popping Coil effect..if one can replicate this ....we have it done.. the Motor is then just an Engineered
                        embodiment of the effect. i have seen in some of the U-tube video posted by Aaron Murakami where he supposedly claims to have acheived the Popping effect..
                        but i am not conveinced on the Power levels exhibited by these demonstartaions.. the key is in the Energy Recycling mechnism by way of the 'Return-stroke' to the source Dipole (the Battery), this is process is perhaps what they terms as the Regauging.. or 3-Flip Inversion, where all the physical componets involved Flip-Invert their Functional behaviour and make it possiable to have a Energy recycle effect with out violating Conservation Law.
                        The photo is really awesome..! did you happen to dismantle one the coil to see how they were wound..? i'm curious!
                        Rgds,
                        Faraday88.
                        Last edited by Faraday88; 07-16-2013, 09:28 PM.
                        'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
                          Hi Mark,
                          First of all Thanks a million for the two Papers that you shared, yes i received them via mail.
                          My speculation on this Technology is puerly on the simple Popping Coil effect..if one can replicate this ....we have it done.. the Motor is then just an Engineered
                          embodiment of the effect. i have seen in some of the U-tube video posted by Aaron Murakami where he supposedly claims to have acheived the Popping effect..
                          but i am not conveinced on the Power levels exhibited by these demonstartaions.. the key is in the Energy Recycling mechnism by way of the 'Return-stroke' to the source Dipole (the Battery), this is process is perhaps what they terms as the Regauging.. or 3-Flip Inversion, where all the physical componets involved Flip-Invert their Functional behaviour and make it possiable to have a Energy recycle effect with out violating Conservation Law.
                          The photo is really awesome..! did you happen to dismantle one the coil to see how they were wound..? i'm curious!
                          Rgds,
                          Faraday88.
                          Faraday, my "coil popping" experiments are simple and I don't claim any magic. Anyone can make a coil repel another coil or repel a magnet. That is simply a coil in series with the plasma ignition type circuit. The cap is forced to accelerate its own discharge - a very valid negative resistance effect. I have my own model to explain it but that's irrelevant. That discharge pulses the coil and repels a magnet. If I had to coils in series and I made them repel, that would be the same concept only stronger. I was also using "flea power" compared to what Gray was using so please keep it in perspective that my experiment wasn't intended to demonstrate anything earth shattering.

                          However, in some crude experiments having a measurable amount of joules in a cap, a magnet of a certain weight was repelled into the air at a height, which exceeds the height that this amount of joules in the cap could have achieved. Again, very crude, but that is what I want to get back to when I have time. force x distance for that magnet will tell me how many joules of work is needed to lift that magnet at that weight to a certain height. The joules in the cap were actually less than that indicating a possible gain - I think it is from the accelerated time compression.

                          The joules are the same whether it is over a long time or short time.

                          However, we know that the effects of compressing work in time give much different results - we are creating very sharp gradients.
                          Tap a glass window 5 times very softly - nothing happens. Take the same joules and discharge it all in one quick punch and the glass crumbles to dust. Same input, but very different outcome.

                          On top of that, the acceleration of the cap discharge speed is compressing it in time that is shorter than what is supposed to be happening when you consider all the resistances and impedance that the cap is discharging into. I'm not an EE so will leave that to you guys to do the math on that but I do understand the nature of what is happening (in my own mind) and I get the principles of what is happening. When you have 2/3 of the cap discharge almost down in a straight line compared to it discharging close to a 45 degree line in normal circumstances, something interesting is happening there.
                          Aaron Murakami





                          You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BroMikey
                            Hi Faraday

                            Here is a guy who is running a Gray style motor he is pretty smart I think.
                            This is part 1 of 6
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlm6VjieRJQ
                            With his batteries/caps series and paralleled - I believe it is closer to the "Tesla Switch" method.
                            Aaron Murakami





                            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi Aaron,
                              Sorry for the delay in responding to this..i guess the forum site was under construction since last week...
                              Yes it seems so...in fact Tesla Switch is the way to go where you can combine the Positive and Negative Energy to see Overunity...
                              what say?
                              Rgds,
                              Faraday88.
                              'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hi Aaron,
                                First of all with all due respects to you in that demonstartion, i did not intend to condemn what you showed there, but its my contention is on asking if any body has shown the so-called 'secret mixing of the two forms of Energies (Gray's comments and Richard Hacenkberger's Techinical discussion notes) which makes the Electromagnets pop with tremendous force. Much of your explanation is in line with even what i think about the mechanism.
                                do you think Aviso ismael has acheived what he shows in that video..?(the Magnet/Coil set up, pops over 25 feet in Air)
                                Rgds,
                                Faraday88.
                                'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

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