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Two Stage Mechanical Oscillator Replication

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  • #16
    That will be very interesting if the 2 back to back H11D1's will switch correctly with the incoming magnet, and the out going magnet phase....

    if it does work, than you can feed the spike back to the front end Cap to increase the power to the circuit, or to a cap pulser to charge other batterys..... as showen in one of the BJ/Cole Schematics

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    • #17
      Hi RS,

      Originally posted by RS_ View Post
      That will be very interesting if the 2 back to back H11D1's will switch correctly with the incoming magnet, and the out going magnet phase....

      if it does work, than you can feed the spike back to the front end Cap to increase the power to the circuit, or to a cap pulser to charge other batterys..... as showen in one of the BJ/Cole Schematics
      With the regular SSG circuit we're using now, when an automotive timing light pickup is on the run battery lead, it flashes and shows the magnet maybe 1/8" before the leading edge of the core. So this would indicate where the attraction H11D1 would turn on.

      And when the timing light pickup is hooked up to the charge battery lead, it flashes about 1/8" before the magnet reaches top dead center of the core when the trigger winding switches polarity. This should theoretically be the point where the attraction H11D1 turns off and the repulsion H11D1 turns on.

      I haven't had a chance to build the Bedini/Cole circuit yet to see if it will actually do this or not? I'm hoping there is enough switching delay to prevent both devices from being on at the same time. And we will also harvest the spikes with the option of feedback to the front end or a separate battery.

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      • #18
        "doesn't trigger as well as the first circuit"

        One issue I suspect you might run into with this set-up is that as the pendulum increases the magnitude of its swing, the bicycle frame lever will increase the magnitude of its oscillation. In turn as the magnitude of the oscillation of the lever increaes this will modestly distort/alter the swing of the pendulum. Don't know if it will affect the minimum distance between the pendulum and coil but it clearly will affect the angle of the incoming magnet. Hence, the firing of the coil will be to some extent dependant on the magnitude of oscillation of the lever. I would guess if one constrained the oscillation of the lever to a set maximum, once the lever was consistently oscillating at this maximum one would have a consistent behavior of the incoming magnet to engineer the triggering. One thing I find interesting in the video is the lever seems to have two behaviors and the amplitude of one swing looks to be nearly half the amplitude of the other. Maybe this would be corrected/changed by a bipoolar commutator circuit such as you are working on. Actually why the heck is one oscillation of the lever strong and the next weak? That is strange, it is not a subtle finding you can see it in your video, you can even hear it Da da Da da Da da, it also isn't chaotic it consistenly is following that pattern. The lever is being driven by the pendulum, this implies that one end of the pendulum rotation is higher in magnitude than the next one 180 degrees opposite, yet the coil is being triggered when the magnet comes in from either direction correct? If so it would seem the strength of the firing depends on which direction the magnet approached the coil from which again seems pretty strange, could that be a thing? A bipolar commutation might change this, or again I said it intitially for the most part in jest, but if you used a lighter pendulum and did a full 360 degrees of rotation you would always have the coil being triggered by the magnet coming in from the same direction. One last thought, does that behavior remain if you stop gathering energy from the third coil to feed back into the system?
        Last edited by ZPDM; 05-01-2019, 01:06 PM.

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        • #19
          Hi Paul,

          One issue I suspect you might run into with this set-up is that as the pendulum increases the magnitude of its swing, the bicycle frame lever will increase the magnitude of its oscillation. In turn as the magnitude of the oscillation of the lever increaes this will modestly distort/alter the swing of the pendulum. Don't know if it will affect the minimum distance between the pendulum and coil but it clearly will affect the angle of the incoming magnet. Hence, the firing of the coil will be to some extent dependant on the magnitude of oscillation of the lever.
          Yes, this is part of the problem. It can be corrected by having the coil mounted on the bicycle frame, but we're not ready to go there yet.

          I would guess if one constrained the oscillation of the lever to a set maximum, once the lever was consistently oscillating at this maximum one would have a consistent behavior of the incoming magnet to engineer the triggering.
          We do have stops on the bicycle frame which makes it consistent when it actually hits the stops. With new newer coil, it doesn't hit the lower stop which in turn causes erratic swinging. The pendulum doesn't always get close enough to the coil when this happens. Plus the trigger winding on the newer coil has fewer turns so requires the pendulum to come closer in order to fire the circuit.

          One thing I find interesting in the video is the lever seems to have two behaviors and the amplitude of one swing looks to be nearly half the amplitude of the other. Maybe this would be corrected/changed by a bipoolar commutator circuit such as you are working on. Actually why the heck is one oscillation of the lever strong and the next weak? That is strange, it is not a subtle finding you can see it in your video, you can even hear it Da da Da da Da da, it also isn't chaotic it consistenly is following that pattern. The lever is being driven by the pendulum, this implies that one end of the pendulum rotation is higher in magnitude than the next one 180 degrees opposite, yet the coil is being triggered when the magnet comes in from either direction correct? If so it would seem the strength of the firing depends on which direction the magnet approached the coil from which again seems pretty strange, could that be a thing?
          This is normal behavior and caused by the bicycle lever seeing more weight at the top of the backward swing than it does at the top of the forward swing due to the position of the swinging weight on the pendulum. The farther away from a pivot point on a lever the mass is, the more torque it applies to the lever. If you look at Veljko Milkovic’s videos you will see this same behavior. The direction of approach doesn't affect the triggering, but the coil to magnet gap is critical and was inconsistent with our newer coil.

          One last thought, does that behavior remain if you stop gathering energy from the third coil to feed back into the system?
          The only change in behavior between feeding the energy back to the run battery and collecting it on a secondary charge battery, is that the run battery doesn't drop voltage nearly as fast. The pendulum actually runs a little better when sending the energy back to the front because it is always working at a higher voltage.

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          • #20
            If the one two punch doesn't wind up working, you can always have 3 coils in a row - one at the bottom like now and one on either side spaced appropriately and a simple SG circuit will still work for each. That would probably be more efficient than having an SG type circuit pull and push because with repulsion, you get that bucking loss you can't get back but that is non-existant in attraction mode.

            With attraction you'll have the cogging to overcome, which is normal and does reduce the mechanical work on the pendulum but if you wanted to go all out, you could short a coil on the same core right after the transistor shuts off to create a mild counter current that will essentially neutralize the cogging. But then you'd have to figure out the timing of that short to get it to work in two directions as well. Anyway, something to think about - is uses Lenz's Law to your advantage. Magnet induces current into shorted coil and shorted coil will make a magnetic field that repels the magnet. It has to be tuned with the right number of windings, etc. and can be done so there is such little repulsion that the magnet just swings on by after it is attracted to the coil from the initial SG attraction mode cycle. Anyway, food for thought for later advanced experiments.
            Last edited by Aaron Murakami; 05-01-2019, 04:38 PM.
            Aaron Murakami





            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

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            • #21
              Hi Gary,

              Today I learned, "This is normal behavior and caused by the bicycle lever seeing more weight at the top of the backward swing than it does at the top of the forward swing due to the position of the swinging weight on the pendulum."

              Yes of course, "The farther away from a pivot point on a lever the mass is, the more torque it applies to the lever." Don't I feel silly, but seriously I hadn't noticed that before with the two stage oscillator, thx. Well ... uh .... sounds like you have everything under control.

              Will be interesting to see if you can get the whole thing working with power out from the lever end, sounds like you will use a crankshaft to spin a "flux gate" generator, which would be interesting sans the whole two stage oscillator part.

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              • #22
                Hi Paul,

                Originally posted by ZPDM View Post
                .........Will be interesting to see if you can get the whole thing working with power out from the lever end, sounds like you will use a crankshaft to spin a "flux gate" generator, which would be interesting sans the whole two stage oscillator part.
                We plan to use neos connected together by steel bars swinging past two stationary coils. I don't think a crankshaft/connecting rod would work very well at converting the uneven oscillations into rotary power. And at 1.25 rps/75 rpm wouldn't produce much electricity in a small rotary generator.
                Last edited by Gary Hammond; 05-02-2019, 12:26 PM.

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                • #23
                  Hi Gary,

                  Yes, I was thinking it might be hard to get a crankshaft to flywheel to work well, but then again who knows it is all unexplored. Your idea sounds great. Might only add a couple percent but you could consider piezoelectrics as the bumpers for the max/min of the lever oscillation. I think I saw Velko doing something with piezos. Could always increase those rpms if you go loop the loop, sorry, you and your grandson are the ones doing all the work, I'm just the guy that is excited because I wanted to do something similar.

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                  • #24
                    Hi Paul,

                    Originally posted by ZPDM View Post
                    Hi Gary,........Could always increase those rpms if you go loop the loop ..........
                    Not sure that closing the loop would increase the frequency/oscillation rate/rpm. The oscillation rate is mostly determined by the mass, cg, and length of the pendulum. Stronger pulses cause it to swing faster, but also farther at the same time. They tend to cancel each other out. Shortening and lengthening the pendulum, however, greatly influences the frequency ..... just like adjusting a grandfather clock.

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                    • #25
                      I mentioned 3 coils and one magnet, with attraction mode, you'd still might not trigger it well.

                      With 1 SG coil - just put 3 magnets with with spaces between them on the pendulum. It would be like a piece of a wheel with a few magnets. That one coil will go as high as you need. Keep the setup like you have it, just add 2 magnets - one on each side. Make some little retainer to attach to the pendulum and you're done.
                      Aaron Murakami





                      You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi Aaron,

                        Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                        .................With 1 SG coil - just put 3 magnets with with spaces between them on the pendulum. It would be like a piece of a wheel with a few magnets. That one coil will go as high as you need. Keep the setup like you have it, just add 2 magnets - one on each side. Make some little retainer to attach to the pendulum and you're done.
                        I think this would work great if the pendulum pivot point wasn't moving up and down as the pendulum swings. But if the magnets are spaced 2.5 magnet widths apart, by the time the outside magnets are nearest to the core the whole pendulum pivot is not at it's lowest point. If the magnets are spaced closer together it might not work well either?

                        One thing I like about attraction and then repulsion is it assists the pendulum in it's natural movement first toward and then away from it's lowest point as the pivot point moves up and down. It not only assists the swinging, but also assists the up and down effort at the same time.

                        The more I think about it, I'm leaning toward the Bedini/Cole bipolar circuit with two separate trigger coils wired in opposite directions.

                        But today, my grandson was here for shop class and we discussed everything on this thread so far. We concluded maybe we should change our focus and work out the generator end first to see what is really needed to drive it. We cut the fork tube off the frame and made a bracket to carry the magnets and shunt bars I used previously on the G-field generator I built that was driven by my attraction motor. We are also going to use the coils from that same generator.

                        Next week we will weld the magnet assembly to the bicycle frame and mount the coils to the wooden A-frame. Here's a picture of what we got done today. The parts are sitting on my cnc mill waiting to be welded together. The coils are also there for the picture so you can see how it will work.

                        DSC06975.jpg

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                        • #27
                          Hi Gary,

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nik7JyNRbE

                          At around 8:32 Veljko starts a discussion of a, "Fast Model with Eccentric Rotor" He notes you can run it at 12,000 RPMs. This two stage oscillator set-up will work with any unbalanced rotor. As energy imparted should increase with square of velocity, I think one issue is just how sturdy is the set-up as by design it will want to tear itself apart with a spinning unbalanced rotor. I suspect, but this is a guess, the lever arm will also only have one behavior with a full rotation, not the two seen with the half swing pendulum set-up. The other cool thing demonstrated in this part of the video which I had forgotten about is he demonstrates no change in amp draw with loading of the lever arm as opposed to loading of the drill bit side. Not wanting to come across as pushy, just mentioning some other things that might be fun to look at at some point.
                          Last edited by ZPDM; 05-03-2019, 01:41 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Hi all,

                            Here's an update to our two stage oscillator project. We got the genny coils mounted and checked the output which is pretty low. The wave form is shown in this photo.

                            DSC06977.jpg

                            The genny coils are shown in this photo.

                            DSC06976.jpg

                            When the magnets were moved closer to the coils, the frame wasn't rigid enough to keep them from dragging. So we added some stiffeners to the frame and we still need to add a few more.

                            The voltage doubling setup gave us about 4 volts DC and would light a string of LED's. We need to get a lot more voltage than this to charge a battery. So we are going to replace the pendulum with a weighted bicycle wheel and try spinning it with an SSG circuit. If this works, we may power it with a split the negative battery rotation scheme.

                            When we placed the unit on the concrete floor with the pendulum installed, we had to hold it down as it was bouncing up and down. So however it's driven, it will need to be anchored down securely.

                            The video is in the next post.
                            Last edited by Gary Hammond; 06-07-2019, 11:55 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Here's the video. It refused to attach to the previous post.

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                              • #30
                                Awesome stuff

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