R-Charge Window Motor

[DadHav]

Hello John, I think this is probably the first time we've talked. I've had some really good results with running the window motor from capacitors. I've used the small MPS A06 and 56 complimentary pair with a 2N 2222 driver both in the half wave and full wave circuit. I have very good results with only trim resistors in the circuit and have been able to run the window motor at less than 50 micro amp average. My question was related to what the resistors in the half or full wave standard circuit are doing and what determination was associated with their values. I'm referring to the 470 ohm resistors between the base and emitters of the power transistors and the 220 ohm resistor from the emitter of the driver transistor to the base of the PNP power transistor. I was also wondering how the individual gains on the transistors effect operation of the circuit. I thought I remembered you saying you preferred a delay on one of the power transistors. I hope this wasn't a lame question John. I appreciate you taking the time to look into what we where talking a about.
John H.

[John_Bedini]

DadHav,
So just bother me that is why I started this board.
First let me say that some of you remember Carl Hurst from the old window group. Most of the Window Motors Rick has changed to his design by putting the coils on the outside and that is not the same window motors Ron Cole and I built, as the fields are much differnt. But they all use the same circuits for recovery. But anyway what do you want me to help with?
John B

[DadHav]

Hi Patrick. I guess what I'm wondering is why no resistors seems to work better for me in the low current and voltage range. A simple answer may be there is less voltage dropped across components in the circuit, so the coils get a little more potential. I hate to bother John, I know how busy he must be. I just thought it was an interesting thing to talk about. Although I might be tempted to build a little larger if I thought I understood enough to come up with better results than what I currently have.
Thanks Patrick.
John H.

[min2oly]

Right back "atcha" John H. - some excellent questions, and right to the point.

My main thought was that the pnp and npn IMHO do not need to be "perfectly" matched, and that the ckt takes care of their "small" differences - however if we are paralleling transistors as JB does on the Ferris Wheel, and/or are using the "full bipolar switch", we will need to match the row of npn's to npn's and pnp's to pnp's - or we will create heat, the thief we seek to avoid.

Now, there is more to a transistor than I can hope to know, all I know is there is more I need to learn... even the question you bring up sheds new light..."the gain relationship between the two would be uneven through the curve" could this be the reason for the 3rd resistor/pot? I find there is a very small window when tuning this 3rd resistance where the charging takes off....

John Bedini, I would love to hear some insights on this subject as well... Please :-)


Sincerely,
Patrick

[DadHav]

Resistors

Hello Patrick, Ren.
I hear what your both saying. It's just that there may be some simple things we are missing. It's not clear to me what is really going on with matching transistors I guess. I can test the gain and match a set pretty close, but if the gain is identical does that mean each of the transistors will come on at exactly the same voltage and reach saturation at the same voltage? I think I read that JB wanted the PNP of the half wave to turn on first, but I don't remember. If that's the case more resistance on the NPN could probably do that, but then the gain relationship between the two would be uneven through the curve no? I'm sure the theory of timing, gain, saturation etc. are all covered but I just missed it somewhere. I've mentioned this before but out of a batch of 50 MPSA 06's I had one in a small SSG that seemed at the time to have about 5 times the charge characteristics than the rest. I was so excited that I blew the transistor from being careless. Like so many things I've experienced, sometimes you can't duplicate results once you break a setup and start again. Ren, Thanks for the compliment on the window motor. I just had someone call it a fish bowl and another a plastic toy. There is something I never posted a video on and that's how strong that motor runs at less than .5 amps. If I ever have another video with it I'll through a radiator fan on it of something.
Take care guys. It's good to talk to you.
John H.

[Ren]

Hey John,

Great to see you here mate! Im doin ok, recovering from injury so you poor guys have to put up with my ramblings till they let me out of the house. It keeps me sane, but probably drives you INsane lol.

Woulkd love to flesh out this section of the forum a little more, there are some great replications out there. Yours stands right up the top IMO that tiny little window motor chugging away on almost nothing was so cool. Im not sure about a detailed description. My basic understanding was that the resistors on the E-B of the complimentary pair were there so the triggering transistor was able to pull a small amount of power from the source to complete the triggering, similar to the way a darlington arrangement works I guess. But if you have it running without this then there goes my theory.

I will say this. Dr Stifflers designs (the ones he released anyway) focus specifically on the MPSa06. He said his effect was more pronounced with this transistor alone, he was unable to find any others that worked as good. He went into the actual specifics as to why, from what I gathered it was the way it was made. I find it no surprise that John B also selected this transistor.

Also the 2n2222 is a funny little guy who exhibits some useful qualities, he is often used in touch sensitive circuits, because he can be setup so that simply touching the base with your hand can trigger the circuit into operation.

Look forward to any other comments.

Good to have you here DadHav

Regards

[min2oly]

Ok, I'll take a stab at it

This is how I see it, and I promise to change my opinion as soon as others type up a more accurate description :-)

- all 4 resistant points are all about controlling how far each of the 2 "MJL's" doors open.

The main goal is for the EC of each MJL to open at the exact same time and to allow in (to the coil) the exact same amount of energy simultaneously, then close quickly and simultaneously to allow discharge through the FWBR. Keeping in mind every coil is different and has it's own requirements about how much and how fast you allow the energy in. This allows the efficient charge/discharge of the coil.

Now I know your question is deeper than that...


The first resistor to the base of the controlling Transistor from the trigger coil or hall or reed.... as you note, the trim, is the main controller once we set/decide on the other 3.

The Two EB MJL resistors will simultaneously control their respective EC currents "chicken or the egg" this is where we ultimately control the speed/freq/depth of charge to the power coil.

The 3rd resistor, that connects the controlling transistor to the pnp, seems to be there to control the balance between the pnp and the npn. I'm guessing on this as my attempts to beta match a pnp and an npn are not very fruitful as much as I can tell, and when I sub in various pnp's or npn's, I have to adjust the resistance here to get the signal back where I want it.

As usual, I'll be looking forward to more advanced explanations :-)
Patrick

[DadHav]

Hey Ren, How are you? Wow, someone let me on this forum without a promise to be good. But I promise guys. I have been wondering about something regarding the half wave circuit. Does anyone have a good explanation about the values of the resistors used in the circuit? In other words how were the values chosen and how do they effect the operation of the circuit. I'm not referring to the trim resistance. I think most know I like to try running the motors at the lowest amp draw as possible just for fun. At one time I had my window motor running at less than 20 micro amps. The only way I can do this is with the small MPS A06 and 56 with a 2N 2222 driver as well as no resistors in the circuit other than the trim resistor. Just wondering. There's probably a detailed explanation somewhere and I just missed it.
It's good to be here.
John H.

[Ren]

Wade,
I highly recommend you pursue the bipolar circuit, preferably hall switched, since you only have one trigger winding at the moment. Depending on your skill level and past experience I would proceed as such.

1. connect SG circuit up to coil (master bifilar only) and get it running. Check that everything is balanced and running smoothly. Tinker and measure its charging ability, but dont get too hung up on that.

2. replace SG circuit with 1/2 bipolar circuit, use trigger winding to start with. This will only switch on every second magnet, if your rotor is nsnsns. Observe and study circuit function. Its not as straightforward as it may seem at first glance. You can parallel as many strands to the 1/2 switch as you like (within reason). They must be in phase with master coil and of correct polarity.

3. full bipolar circuit will require hall or optical triggering or another winding or pickup coil. Hall triggering will benefit from a separate timing disc, fixed to the shaft. There really is alot of work to keep you busy in steps 1 and 2. The SG circuit will power this motor, but it was not designed for it, and in my limited past experience I have found the charging in SG mode on the window motor platform to be inferior to the true SG monopole, with cores, as designed by John. But hey, feel free to prove me wrong anyone.

Most of all, have fun, and learn. The half circuit is so cool. I wish I had started studying it earlier on in my journey. Scaled up correctly the window motor is a beast, better have your thunderware on when you flick the switch on a multi coil multi phase neo magnet window motor. Tom C has a lovely example in the works from memory.

Regards

[wade]

Hi

Thankyou to the people who have helped setup the new forum it looks good and to John Bedini for sharing his knowledge freely.

I have recently purchased a window motor from R-charge it has three larger SSG circuit components and three 19 gauge coils to go with it. One being bifilar. I am waiting on a pot and some resistors so i can tune it. Is anyone else using this kit and if so what amp draw, rpm, battery charge voltage are you getting? Also this kit has come with neo magnets, so im not sure what kind of impact these will have. Also has anyone added the bipolar curcuit to this kit? Or tried to generate some extra power from the shaft of the motor.

Thanks for your time Wade.