Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

R-Charge Window Motor

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    DadHav,
    the picture is actually a bit too small?
    "omnium dubitare est"

    Comment


    • #32
      mot runs mot.jpg

      Hello Stevan.
      I'm just experimenting with file extensions and size. This is a drawing of the Motor Runs Motor circuit for low voltage and current. In my opinion the circuit is good for experimenting with small earth cells and offers an alternative circuit to the blocking oscillators. I hope this is more legible. It seems like uploading a PNG file doesn't work to well for me. This file is a JPG. I'll add it to the original post as well.
      J
      Last edited by DadHav; 08-21-2012, 08:00 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by DadHav View Post
        I see John, So the elimination of the 220 ohm resistor isn't necessarily a bad thing if you have the voltage adjustments down low enough to not overdrive the power transistors? Well I guess that means when I'm going up in voltage on the little circuits and starting to draw too much current it could be that I need that resistor. Thanks now that make sense. Should have been able to figure that out myself. I never was a fan of the outside coil but had luck with it on the little notch rotor in the mag lev base. Since we have mentioned coils do you mind letting us know what you think of the S shaped coil that goes around the outside but surrounds the entire rotor? Tis is all one single winding and goes across the N then over to the S and back the other way etc. until it goes all around the outside and has wires aligned with all six magnets.
        Thanks John
        John Hav
        Hey John H,

        Late quote reply, but just wanted to add my experience with the 220 ohm resistor. I had excellent results with a 1k pot in series with this resistor. You can see how it affected amp draw and rotor speed on my 36v window motor vid on YouTube. I used a 7 filar coil with 5 windings paralleled to the full bipolar switch. @ 12v input any variance on the 1k pot caused the rotor to slow down, and input current dropped to a trickle. The 1k only became necessary on higher input voltages. In the video I ran on 36v and at start up amp draw pegged my 5A analogue gauge. Once up to speed its drawing about 2 amps. I
        tweak each trigger winding next and speed varies slightly and the amps drop to 1A. Next I tweak the pot in question and that is where the speed increases significantly, with a drop in current to below 500 ma. On the video you can actually hear that I tweak one half of the switch too far, and I have to knock it back to get it running at an optimum range. Mind you, all of this was done by ear, listening to the rotor speed, but it is just like JB said, that resistor controls the current in this switch. I think you are spot on when you say it probably isn't needed when you run at very low voltages.

        Regards

        Comment


        • #34
          Greetings, Mr. Bedini, and esteemed group members:
          Though I am overseas, I am always near the developments in your fantastic groups. First, I am extremely flattered to be mentioned by name for my meager contributions in the energizers and motors. Second, in response to post #19, your very clear and succinct reference to my builds of "window motors" - you are 1000% correct. My intent was to build not a super high efficiency motor that can self run on capacitors, but rather a very high torque, pulsed, zero magnetic drag or BEMF prime mover, so to speak. At high RPM, cogging of magnetic motors becomes negligible. Thus, the intent is to marry an electrical turbine, as you so aptly put it, to a kind of high efficiency, high voltage magneto. In retrospect, the use of the term "window motor" was ill-advised, as not everyone understood my philosophy. There was not a "zero force motor" group, and the magnetic curl used to repel magnetic corner flux was not covered in any other venue. In having perfectly understood the galvanometer analogy for the window motor, I had struck off toward the no Lenz law holy grail of motors to try to build a prime mover to spin a large Watson-esque magneto very efficiently. How to use that contraption is another subject, so not pertinent here. My sincere apologies if my course caused others to go off the path of the pure and proven window motor.

          Again, great thanks to Mr. Bedini, and blessings to all and keep up the magnificent work! Discoveries abound!
          Carl Hurst

          Comment


          • #35
            Carl Hurst S-Coil or Baseball Stich coil motor

            Originally posted by John_Bedini View Post
            JohnHav,
            Is that not another Carl Hurst motor?
            Hi, guys:
            Here is that old video showing the configuration: S-Cage Stator and Reed Switch-Driven Bedini-Cole Commutator Large Window Motor Notes below the vid.

            You can see I was off in another direction already with this. It does NOT charge caps well, there is little or no back EMF, is uses little power, but it is quite torquey.

            It is NOT a real window motor.
            Carl Hurst

            Comment


            • #36
              Zero force motor

              In this Video I'm showing a "ZERO FORCE MOTOR" The motor works opposite the normal SG or DC motor. No Back EMF is developed in the motor, so it does not generate anything. The discussion will take place in the Energysciencefourm. here .http://www.energyscienceforum.com/ The motor was built by Peter Lindermann from one of my early models. The Forum is dictated to the people that worked so hard on the SG groups.
              Thanks for watchingJohn Bedini
              John Bedini
              My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

              Comment


              • #37
                John (DadHav),
                To really easy go with PNG, one is advised to use "gimp" even on "Windows" , but the JPG is of sufficient quality to make that effort not mandatory? I hope soon I end running around and get to do more "stuff" and "in place".

                Just for the moment:
                when we substitute a MJL21194 (with it's inherent FVD of 0.5...4V (@nnn mA... @16A) with a /MOSFET and a froward diode/ () we get an inhered FVD (Forward Voltage Drop) of 0.35V... for the diode and RDSon of the MOSFET ranging from 0.03 to max 0.3V right?, so there are marginal cases where we could use the MJL to surpass the MOSFET provided the BJT is richly saturated (eg. by a Sziklay driver) and well below it's rated 16A (presumably around 1A..4A?)?
                could anyone comment to that?
                This is in the light if we cold get close (and how close) to breaking even with the WM topology IMHO.
                "omnium dubitare est"

                Comment


                • #38
                  A-field motors

                  Originally posted by DadHav View Post
                  Hi John, I don't think I've seen all of Carl's motors but the ones I saw where called A field motors if I remember right and their coils where horizontal and to the sides of the rotor. I'll see if I can find a video of what I'm talking about. It looked like a good idea to me, but I haven't seen it implemented on a high quality build yet. I'm sure it will end up being something you've considered at one time or the other but we'll see.
                  John Hav.
                  Hi, DadHav:
                  The reason I always referred to the motors I built as A-Field motors is very specific. The A-Field was brought to our attention long ago, I think in the early 80's by Mr. Bedini. He and Tom Bearden referred to the A-Field, both N and S, in a hand drawn pencil drawing. It is the A-field that I have made use of in all my iterations and experiments. I was ever striving for a strong, pulsed no Lenz, no BEMF, minimum eddy current motor, with which to drive a very effective magneto at high speed using very little current. I have other iteration I did not video, including ones similar to the zero force motor Mr. Bedini showed in his WMV video recently, and also similar to the one that Dr. Lindeman built. That iteration showed some really peculiar characteristics. Let's just say that magnets like being sucked into the center of coils, so you need to time both energizing and also the collapse of coil field to get the most powerful attraction AND repulsion of armature magnets. Their orientation is also very interesting...

                  Anyway, the A-field term was appropriate, as it is the curl field next to a wire bundle I am using, but NOT strictly in a "window" configuration. But the only venue we had at the time for posting these experiments was the Window Motor group, as that is the closest related thrust in motors and energizers. Here is the link to that old S-curved stator winding: S-Cage Stator and Reed Switch-Driven Bedini-Cole Commutator Large Window Motor

                  The "baseball stitch" winding I used on a four pole armature....


                  Hope that helps!
                  Best regards
                  Carl Hurst

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Hey John H,

                    Late quote reply, but just wanted to add my experience with the 220 ohm resistor. I had excellent results with a 1k pot in series with this resistor. You can see how it affected amp draw and rotor speed on my 36v window motor vid on YouTube. I used a 7 filar coil with 5 windings paralleled to the full bipolar switch. @ 12v input any variance on the 1k pot caused the rotor to slow down, and input current dropped to a trickle. The 1k only became necessary on higher input voltages. In the video I ran on 36v and at start up amp draw pegged my 5A analogue gauge. Once up to speed its drawing about 2 amps. I
                    tweak each trigger winding next and speed varies slightly and the amps drop to 1A. Next I tweak the pot in question and that is where the speed increases significantly, with a drop in current to below 500 ma. On the video you can actually hear that I tweak one half of the switch too far, and I have to knock it back to get it running at an optimum range. Mind you, all of this was done by ear, listening to the rotor speed, but it is just like JB said, that resistor controls the current in this switch. I think you are spot on when you say it probably isn't needed when you run at very low voltages.

                    Regards


                    Hi Ren. I found also to have some extra latitude with a variable resistance there. A pot in series with the resister is probably the wise way to go if you experiment there right? I had a trimmer there with no fixed resistor and quickly found out you can toast them pretty quick. It was at that time I started thinking about how much potential might be dropping across the components and I put the little full wave together. I just always set the current limiting on the PS low enough not to pop a transistor and had fun seeing how low I could go. My plan is to make a few boards with capacitors and solar cells so that my Sons can set these little motors on a shelf or windowsill and have them run for a long time.
                    Take care Ren. Thanks
                    John Hav
                    Last edited by DadHav; 08-24-2012, 06:04 AM. Reason: Forgot to ad Ren's quote.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SixtythreeXKE View Post
                      Greetings, Mr. Bedini, and esteemed group members:
                      Though I am overseas, I am always near the developments in your fantastic groups. First, I am extremely flattered to be mentioned by name for my meager contributions in the energizers and motors. Second, in response to post #19, your very clear and succinct reference to my builds of "window motors" - you are 1000% correct. My intent was to build not a super high efficiency motor that can self run on capacitors, but rather a very high torque, pulsed, zero magnetic drag or BEMF prime mover, so to speak. At high RPM, cogging of magnetic motors becomes negligible. Thus, the intent is to marry an electrical turbine, as you so aptly put it, to a kind of high efficiency, high voltage magneto. In retrospect, the use of the term "window motor" was ill-advised, as not everyone understood my philosophy. There was not a "zero force motor" group, and the magnetic curl used to repel magnetic corner flux was not covered in any other venue. In having perfectly understood the galvanometer analogy for the window motor, I had struck off toward the no Lenz law holy grail of motors to try to build a prime mover to spin a large Watson-esque magneto very efficiently. How to use that contraption is another subject, so not pertinent here. My sincere apologies if my course caused others to go off the path of the pure and proven window motor.

                      Again, great thanks to Mr. Bedini, and blessings to all and keep up the magnificent work! Discoveries abound!
                      Carl Hurst
                      Hello Carl. I for one am really happy to see your reply here. You're most cordial and for sure we all thank John for sharing his knowledge. I know you mentioned you're style motor doesn't belong in the group talked about here but never the less I find it very interesting and wouldn't mind learning a little more about it. Do you have more information available anywhere or will you be considering posting a thread here? Are there any advanced builds to look at? I think the idea of the stitch winding has some possibilities. I can picture a stitch wind around the outside of a phenolic resin disk having 12 wire notches and an outrunner rotor with 14 or 16 magnets. The 12 driver notches could be wound to be three phase coinciding to the amount of magnets. Each of the three phases could be driven by a pulse circuit with a hall effect trigger or the entire motor could be driven by an R/C three phase motor control. This would make the motor self starting. Of course "Discoveries Abound" and you could run standard notch and pole relationship with bifiler right? Carl, I'm just thinking out loud. You may have done this already.
                      Pardon me for getting carried away but I did want to acknowledge your presence and thank you for the explanation. Thanks John for recognizing the clarification between the two windings needed to be brought up.
                      Take Care
                      John Hav
                      Last edited by DadHav; 08-24-2012, 09:45 AM. Reason: correction

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by SixtythreeXKE View Post
                        Hi, DadHav:
                        The reason I always referred to the motors I built as A-Field motors is very specific. The A-Field was brought to our attention long ago, I think in the early 80's by Mr. Bedini. He and Tom Bearden referred to the A-Field, both N and S, in a hand drawn pencil drawing. It is the A-field that I have made use of in all my iterations and experiments. I was ever striving for a strong, pulsed no Lenz, no BEMF, minimum eddy current motor, with which to drive a very effective magneto at high speed using very little current. I have other iteration I did not video, including ones similar to the zero force motor Mr. Bedini showed in his WMV video recently, and also similar to the one that Dr. Lindeman built. That iteration showed some really peculiar characteristics. Let's just say that magnets like being sucked into the center of coils, so you need to time both energizing and also the collapse of coil field to get the most powerful attraction AND repulsion of armature magnets. Their orientation is also very interesting...

                        Anyway, the A-field term was appropriate, as it is the curl field next to a wire bundle I am using, but NOT strictly in a "window" configuration. But the only venue we had at the time for posting these experiments was the Window Motor group, as that is the closest related thrust in motors and energizers. Here is the link to that old S-curved stator winding: S-Cage Stator and Reed Switch-Driven Bedini-Cole Commutator Large Window Motor

                        The "baseball stitch" winding I used on a four pole armature....


                        Hope that helps!
                        Best regards
                        Carl Hurst
                        Thank you for the answer Carl. I think I understand what you where trying to accomplish. I spent a great deal of time trying to modify eddy currents in the popular R/C hobby motors. They're a challenge for sure. I was only partly successful. Carl you know it's a funny thing, I don't read nearly as much as I should, but I'm getting use to finding out that John B. has done most everything I think of, already. Does that make any sense? Well he's an amazing person.
                        Thank you Carl
                        John Hav

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by John_Bedini View Post
                          In this Video I'm showing a "ZERO FORCE MOTOR" The motor works opposite the normal SG or DC motor. No Back EMF is developed in the motor, so it does not generate anything. The discussion will take place in the Energysciencefourm. here .http://www.energyscienceforum.com/ The motor was built by Peter Lindermann from one of my early models. The Forum is dictated to the people that worked so hard on the SG groups.
                          Thanks for watchingJohn Bedini
                          Hi John. Thanks for posting the video. Nice motor for sure. Fast indeed, and probably limited a little by the reed switches right. The only time I ever threw a magnet was using a coil something like this to drive the rotor. There's still a dent in the beam from where the magnet hit. Never did find the magnet. You know I'm a big fan of the outrunner motors. I keep thinking because this type motor is designed for torque that magnets running around the outside instead of the inside would really be powerful. Maybe to slow though, right?
                          Thanks again, I'll have to read more about what you've already done with this. I'm itching to build something I guess. I've spent some time following one of the popular asymmetrical DC motor forums but I'm still reluctant to get into a serious build.
                          Thanks John
                          John Hav

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            John Hav,
                            The reeds in this motor do not limited the speed I was just coasting it, I will do another video at very high speed, I can run it at speeds that will burn the bearings up, I really do not want to do that to the motor. I will make a simple one to show how to do it. During the moving from one shop to another the first motors got destroyed.
                            Last edited by John_Bedini; 08-25-2012, 09:32 AM. Reason: correction
                            John Bedini
                            My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by John_Bedini View Post
                              John Hav,
                              The reeds in this motor do not limited the speed I was just coasting it, I will do another video at very high speed, I can run it at speeds that will burn the bearings up, I really do not want to do that to the motor. I will make a simple one to show how to do it. During the moving from one shop to another the first motors got destroyed.
                              Really John, I always thought, and I think most others also, that the reeds where limiting and wore out quickly. I'm sure everyone would like to see a video with a high speed rotor and reeds, but I don't want you to burn up your bearings. You saying so is good enough for me. I wonder if modern day reeds are better than my 40 year old ones
                              Thanks John
                              Take Care
                              John Hav

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Dejavue all over again...

                                Originally posted by DadHav View Post
                                Thank you for the answer Carl. I think I understand what you where trying to accomplish. I spent a great deal of time trying to modify eddy currents in the popular R/C hobby motors. They're a challenge for sure. I was only partly successful. Carl you know it's a funny thing, I don't read nearly as much as I should, but I'm getting use to finding out that John B. has done most everything I think of, already. Does that make any sense? Well he's an amazing person.
                                Thank you Carl
                                John Hav
                                As they say in Minnesota: "Ya, sure, you betcha. So you noticed that 'been there, done that' thing about Mr. John Bedini, then?" In almost every discussion I have ever had with that extraordinary man, the Tesla of our day (indeed, one of my twin daughters' middle name is Tesla, for obvious reasons), we have come across "new" ideas that he is able to find lab notes for, going back to at least the 80s. Yes, he has done it all. He knows exactly what each of us experimenters are talking about and can either pull a version that contains the idea right off his shelves, or throw one together in a matter of a couple of hours on his bench to prove a point. I love talking to the man, and once you get the hang of his communications, you get as much information between the lines as you do from the direct content. I have observed him simply nod and smile, because I either "got it" or was onto something he merely inferred. Let me tell you, there are few things in life as rewarding as a compliment or pat on the back from the likes of John Bedini. He has encouraged me over the years, he has corrected me, he has guided me, he has offered help to me, and I am always impressed because he knows exactly what I am talking about and gives both constructive criticism and useful guidance to help my projects come together with less hiccups. He knows every twist in the road and helps to avoid them, if we pay attention and listen carefully.

                                As for the baseball stitch or S-cage stator A-field motors (the former for four, the latter for six magnets), yes, you can bifilar wind these. I have done it. But it did not suit my purposes for the following reasons:
                                1. It causes a feedback loop which turns on the transistors, and thus creates the "spike comb" signal. It is not as good as that produced by Mr. Bedini's energizers. But I guess you could slowly charge secondary batteries with it.
                                2. Because of the high freq spikes, it is not the best, most powerful pulse to drive the armature. For my purposes, you want a good, solid square ON pulse, the width of which may be determined by the width of triggering magnets passing your reeds or your Hall sensors. A tiny mag will produce a short pulse at low RPM, and a downright miniscule pulse at high RPM. (This is one thing I love about these A-field motors.)

                                After experimenting with my 24inch diameter magneto (I am on hiatus right now, dedicating myself to my daughters' educations overseas), I shall endeavor to build a honker of a G-field energizer (also known as a Kromrey device), driven by an ultra-efficient zero force, zero Lenz A-field motor. As the G-field type magneto comes up to speed the cogging goes away. As the G-field is loaded with the right impedance, the mechanical load drops and the assembly (motor&generator) rise, and input drive current drops lower and lower.

                                In my heart of hearts, I am certain that the amazing feats Mr. Bedini proved in his famous townhall conference in California can be improved upon by the use of such a super efficient zero force motor over a regular DC motor that he used. The effects, though envisioned in my dreams, boggle the mind. Now, if only someone could marry a Flynn motor or parallel flux path motor to a window or A-field motor. The geometry eludes me at present, but it does keep me awake some nights.

                                Always a pleasure to correspond with like-minded experimenters, and your work is truly astounding in cleanliness and execution.

                                Very best regards to you, blessings to the group, and salutes to Mr. Bedini, Grand Master of our Radiant & Magnetic Order! -

                                Carl Hurst

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X