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Impedance matching

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  • #16
    The SSG machane Dan B. built, has a vertical shaft that run's on a single ball bearing on the bottom end, and has a normal bearing at the top end. It also has a 16inch disk with 6 magnets for 6 or 7 genny coil configurations, Chad and I wound the coils and built all the electronics and wiring, battery charge / discharge swapping system etc.....

    The genny coil Cap Dump is 3, 1.5F 24V audio super caps in series, and using 2 set's of 3 parallel MJL21193's in the full patent pulser configuration, to pulse 24V of golf cart battery's, at about once a sec +/- some, using a 556 PWM circuit. It also has a SSG Drive Battery Cap Dump Back Popper circuit that is relay based and runs at about once every 1 to 4 sec depending on the genny coils input that i had been testing at the time it blew up

    It also has a Window Motor addition that fits on the very top, to provide torque for the genny coils, because the Fogal mod'ed circuits had almost no torque compared to the standard SSG circuits. The window motor was for making up the difference, so that the SSG part, is just along for the ride..... the window motor's 2 FWBR outputs (Drive Strand and Pick Up Strand), also contributes to filling up the Cap Dump charger and the Back Popper circuit

    The SSG/SG Fogal mods are very advanced, and i will not go into that circuit here........... I tested 3 sets of 3 PCB's, a standard SSG, then one with a SCR Output mod (that i nick named The Tranny Killer), and the last one was the Fogal mod'ed set

    the pic below shows the 3 Fogal mod'ed PCB's bottom side with the burned up parts, and the one on the left is the top side of a standard SSG PCB that has several blown trannys too (I blew them up, when your pushing the envelope, things happen)........

    next pic is the Dan B SSG machine when we first got it running. it does not show all the equipment currently there, as all that was built later......
    it was nice and shiny then, now it's quite dusty and will need a good cleaning and electrical reconnecting to get it all back to running in it's new location in my new shop......
    the 3rd pic shows the PCB's mounted to the bottom side of the coil platform
    Attached Files
    Last edited by RS_; 05-07-2013, 06:50 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Tom C View Post
      Impedance matching and other things were talked about on the advanced groups, you had to do charge testing first. In some ways it was a bit of a pain, but in other ways it made sure you really UNDERSTOOD the machine. now we have members here who have builds that are all over the place, multi coil machines that wont run, guys building skate wheel rotors, horisontal rotors, wrong coils, wrong magnets, wrong circuits, everything.

      I do miss the ability to make sure people ran things correctly. We had a few members who just filled out the spread sheet to advance, and as soon as they got advanced, were asking questions about how to do a good solder joint!! so even after all the "gates" people were still idiots!! for the most part those who were advanced becaome the core of a research group that build good machines, that charged well, and they understood most of what we are talking about.

      We have access to JB now and then, but you have to understand that for him this "SG stuff" is 30 years old, he is way beyond the basic stuff, it was a research project. so he allows us to learn by doing. I do not expect to be spoon fed, and truthfully, I dont want to be.

      A simple look at the SG and what it does, is all you need. Be creative in your switching, coil inductance and impedance, wire size, how to gain mechanical advantage.it all matters. here are some simple questions:
      can you put the coil somewhere else to give mechanical advantage?
      what can you do with the mechanical? (hardly anyone pursures this)
      how can the mechanical be additive?
      how can you run a genny coil and it be non reflective?

      there are literally 100 experiments you can to with a single multi filar SG


      Tom C
      Tom,
      Whilst I agree I think that it is good that the group is not seen as elitist. Or that moderators are trying to control the flow of information.
      That said, it may be helpful to set up a predefined program, for those that want to learn that way. The problem at the moment is the information is getting spread far and wide and joining the dots can sometimes be difficult.
      I think that experimenters need a proven formula for the first build, guaranteed to work! That proves in many people's minds that the technology works. Then divide up the forum into different variants. Monopole bifilar, monopole multistrand, monopole multicoil, superpole ....., window motor ....... Etc. each could have a sub forum beginner and advanced. I'm sure you guys have already discussed this... But the old forum format is probably confusing things.
      We don't want to get spoon fed but inevitably that will occur until we reach the threshold of baseline understanding, wherever that may be. At that point we really start learning!

      Sorry for rambling... In a nut shell, we need a program to above baseline level...Aaron and Peter's book has helped immensely... Your kit will also be of real assistance although cost is still prohibitive to some. Then a clear structure as we branch off into different build types. Different control circuits etc.

      Thank you all for your time and immense help so far. It is really very much appreciated. I am quite prepared to help out if you want to to have someone write a curriculum as I have a little experience in that area.
      Kind regards
      James
      Last edited by James Milner; 12-09-2012, 04:34 PM. Reason: Spelling errors

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      • #18
        oops i meant vertical shaft

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        • #19
          Hi all!
          I have a question about my battery , currently i charge it 46 hours (my bat 12v 4 amp/h SLA) and discharge 20 hours.
          My charging battery have huge sulfation problem , because it reach the voltage after 46 hours from 2 volts to 6 volts.
          I noticed each time when i discharge battery , my resting voltage is in increase and when i measure charging battery each time at charge end i see little voltage increase from previous charge cycle.
          From my understanding this is probably good sign because each charge and discharge cycle my battery working better.
          Question is: how long it can take until i reach 12,6v and 14,5v volts?
          Should i use less current for powering my system (Bedini SSG) , that means longer charging time or more current for powering my system, with 120 mA for powering my Wheel ?
          I already read the book and understand the idea, but in the book don't described or presented an example of C20 charging process and some special cases where you get very sulfated battery's.
          Last edited by BEDINSSGUKRAINE; 12-10-2012, 07:29 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by BEDINSSGUKRAINE View Post
            Hi all!
            I have a question about my battery , currently i charge it 46 hours (my bat 12v 4 amp/h SLA) and discharge 20 hours.
            My charging battery have huge sulfation problem , because it reach the voltage after 46 hours from 2 volts to 6 volts.
            I noticed each time when i discharge battery , my resting voltage is in increase and when i measure charging battery each time at charge end i see little voltage increase from previous charge cycle.
            From my understanding this is probably good sign because each charge and discharge cycle my battery working better.
            Question is: how long it can take until i reach 12,6v and 14,5v volts?
            Should i use less current for powering my system (Bedini SSG) , that means longer charging time or more current for powering my system, with 120 mA for powering my Wheel ?
            I already read the book and understand the idea, but in the book don't described or presented an example of C20 charging process and some special cases where you get very sulfated battery's.
            you need to read the Battery bible

            Directory:Bedini SG:Battery Characteristics - PESWiki

            its the second link down. it will answer most of your questions.

            Tom C


            experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

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            • #21
              @RS thanks for sharing your build, can see you did put a lot of time effort and research into this build, bet you felt like wringing some neck when those boards blew up?

              Questions: from your experience

              One would think that SSG6 alone would be enough to charge those batteries? (I understand the genny coils are mainly for back-popping the primaries ?)

              What is your charge time on the golf cart batteries from flat to full (those are huge caps), hours?

              Do you prefer cap dump to straight Radiant charging? Why?

              Sorry for all the questions again, and thanks for your time.

              Theunis
              Hey !
              WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE PORTION OF SOLAR ENERGY THAT WAS ALLOCATED TO YOU TODAY? !
              JUST THINK ABOUT IT . . .

              Comment


              • #22
                Yea wring some neck was about right, as that really took the wind out of my sails, as i was almost out of transistors, and so focused on the Green house and Aquaponics system, that I am just now getting back around to this project.....

                The SSG part charges the 2 banks of black L16's at 24V in the back ground, that are on a battery swapper system using 400A Latching contactors.... so as one charges, the other bank is discharging with a 24V 2500W inverter

                the 2 sets of 24V golf cart battery banks are on another battery swapper system using 40A relays, and are the primary for the SSG, and are charged from some of the the Genny coils with the big Cap Dump Pulser........

                Time to pulse charge the Golf Cart Battery's varied greatly depending on what kind and how many genney coils i was running tests on at the time.

                Some of the best times were in the 14 hour range........ and started at 12.2V under load where they were pulled down to by the SSG......

                Prefer cap dump or SSG....?

                well it depends on the application, the SSG does a better Job, but cant power another SSG because of the negative energy put in the battery.... where the Cap pulsed battery can power another SG or SSG, because the cap is receiving the negative energy and converting it to positive energy, then pulsing the Battery with it......

                also the SSG charged and very conditioned battery's DO Not take well to being put back in service, like in a Car with normal DC charging, where a Cap Pulsed charged very conditioned battery can be put back in service in a DC charging environment, and it will last a long long time. But the SSG conditioned battery's will run a inverter very well.........

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                • #23
                  Newbies hopes up

                  @ RS

                  thanks you are giving me as a newbie some hope of getting there (some day), and showing that it can be done, yes there is always a price tag to a system like yours, one really needs to do a lot of research it is not as easy as " Please tell me what I need I want to take my house of the grid " ( I don't want to sound disrespectful to anyone, I for one thought it would be easy, until you start looking at the reality of this ) but the intentions is fine but getting down to the nitty-gritty, few have the skill/means/resource/time and funding (lets not forget friends and support) to really do it.

                  Just let me understand this right the SSG (part) is charging the L16's straight radiant no cap-pulsar, and for the golf cart batteries you use the cap pulsar to charge them?

                  What radiant voltages did you get from the spike on your SSG?

                  One last question: Do you rectify the radiant before putting it to the cap?, why not just straight into the caps without the rectifier?


                  Thanks very much for sharing.

                  Theunis
                  Last edited by Prinsloo; 12-10-2012, 01:09 PM.
                  Hey !
                  WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE PORTION OF SOLAR ENERGY THAT WAS ALLOCATED TO YOU TODAY? !
                  JUST THINK ABOUT IT . . .

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Yes, the SSG is single diode per tranny direct into the L16's charging batterys, and the GC's are alternately cap pulsed charged, and at the end, I also had a Primary Cap pulse back popper running from a genny coil or 2 and the window motor pickup strand that would help keep the primary from ever running down, or at least lasting 3 to 4 times longer than with out that feature.........


                    an the standard SSG circuits the spike would be in the 375V range, the SCR in place of the output diode mode had 425V + spikes and would make the protection neon's glow bright, and would kill trannys right and left, if you were not extremely careful in how you ran the ramp up to speed sequence.... The Fogal mods had 390V to 400V spikes and only one or 2 neon's barely glowing, and ran at a much lower current draw than the standard SSG or SCR mod circuits.......

                    rectifying the signal with a FWBR........you have to turn the Hi V ringing AC with very little current, into DC, to store it in a DC Cap, until it builds up to a trigger V, and you pulse it out at a much lower V than it started out, but with some major current, with a extremely short on time, so that the cap V just drops down to the charging batts V, and the cycle starts again (you converted the signal, or re-gauged it)................

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      RS

                      Thanks for sharing all this information of your build, it is really much appreciated !,

                      Have you thought of incorporating solar or wind power into your system ?

                      and what are you using the power from the L16's for?

                      Sorry bud, I just have all these questions !

                      I am going to bug you later this month for some advice, when building the Cap-pulsar, if you don't mind?

                      Theunis
                      Hey !
                      WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE PORTION OF SOLAR ENERGY THAT WAS ALLOCATED TO YOU TODAY? !
                      JUST THINK ABOUT IT . . .

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        will have solar and perhaps a small wind genny to make up for any losses or mishaps where things got real run down

                        the L16's powered a 2500W inverter running a Fridge, and various compact florescent lite's in the shop and various other loads depending on what was going on in my shop....... on occasion even ran things in the house when the electricity went out.......

                        just ask and I will answer about any thing i can......

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                        • #27
                          Thanks RS

                          I'm done with questions for now,

                          need to catch up on some work before year end this side !

                          Thanks

                          Theunis
                          Hey !
                          WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE PORTION OF SOLAR ENERGY THAT WAS ALLOCATED TO YOU TODAY? !
                          JUST THINK ABOUT IT . . .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Mikey,


                            I wrote most, if not all of the above........

                            on small SSG units, this just says that you want to design the coil, to keep the running current below the C20 to C24 of what ever size primary battery you are using. If the current is too high for that battery, make the coil strand length longer. If the current is to low for that given battery, shorten the coil strand length to up the current a little... Or, add or remove extra slave coils, to change the current draw. Doing this does change the Impedance, but not enough to matter much on these size systems. Alternately, change battery AHr sizes, to match your coils.....

                            On Larger muilty strand and muilty coil SSG units, that are powered by, and charging golf cart and larger battery's, the many parallel strands, lowers the units impedance down into the range that matches the big battery's Impedance, this is where Impedance matching is important....... units like this, will pull a fraction of the C20 rate of the primary battery

                            When dealing with the Cap pulser, the Impedance of the coils is not as important, because the cap is the matching device....... But you still want the Current draw to be lower than the C20 to C24 rate of the given size primary battery for that unit......
                            Last edited by RS_; 05-07-2013, 01:51 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RS_ View Post
                              Tom,

                              The last set of 3 SSG circuits running was a Fogal mod'ed circuit, and was doing really good, but the table the machine was on needed moving so the charging circuit was unhooked until i could move the other table with that set of SSG L16 charging batterys was on (heavy) So in the mean time, i had it spinning with the window motor addition, and testing various genny coils with the cap pulse charger. the primary batterys on the SSG machine table were still hooked up, but the SSG trigger switch was off so it was not running. Then some help showed up, and about that time it was time to go feed the critters, so i tell them to not touch any thing and went off to feed.... Then in the middle of feeding, they starting hollering that it was was on fire..... So i ran my butt up to see what the problem was, and when i came around the corner, smoke was boiling off of it. So i grabbed a wrench and unhooked the primary battery lead to the relay swapper system to shut it down.

                              one of them must have flipped the trigger ON/OFF switch and with the output unhooked it blew up, and when Golf cart batterys short out something, it burns, so that set of 3 SSG PCB's were toast.....

                              So at that time i was building the Green house and Aquaponics system and all my $$$ and time has been devoted to that since then, so i will get around to rebuilding the SSG PCB's, and buy some more L16 and GC's to get it all back to running real soon......
                              Hey RS what was the size of the cap, and what was the spec on the bleed resistor?Tom C


                              experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by forelle View Post
                                Hello everybody,
                                It's allways talked about that the coils should match the impedance of the battery,but how is this made?
                                I hope somebody can help.
                                Thanks
                                Impedance Matching is fundamental in power transfer theory in Electrical engineering. if you have an Electrical engineering background in the Circuit theory there is this 'Maximum power transfer theorem' which states that the Maximum power is transfered from the source to the load if the load impedance is a complex conjugate of the source impedance. what this means is stricktly for a Resonant and unity(1) power factor condition. A transformer is typical to match the two impednces between the source and the load.
                                This Theorem is applicable here too, the only difference being that in our case here is for a DC power transfer system. and other aspects such as the 'load' being a Battery and the source being an intermidiate stage of the Coils representing the input Battery and hence it should reflect 1:1 coupling.
                                The Interaction of the Radiant Electrical excitation is evoked inside-out in the batteries (both the Primary and Secondary) and hence the coupling representing the Impedances should be as close as possible.
                                when you start with a virgin formed batteries from the factory, the internal impedence of the battery is lot higher than what you end up after several cycles of Charge -discharge using Radiant Electricity. this lowered impedence is a transfer of the 'lowered' coils impedance reflecting inside the batteries.
                                the next question is how do you lower the coils impedence? to answer this question,
                                you need to study the various geometrical construction of the coils and their parameters that affect the impedence like say the Tesla's flat-pancake geometry of coils, the number of coils and the number of turns.
                                Tesla's taught us how to Increase the Inductance of a coil, whilst reducing its Impedance! (Inductive reactance and so Impedance is a dircet function of its Inductance for a given Frequency) when you deal with the Radiant, you simultaneously alter the DC and AC parameter of a given physical component in an additive manner.
                                hope that clears it.
                                Rgds,
                                Faraday88.
                                Last edited by Faraday88; 05-26-2018, 06:56 AM.
                                'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

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