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Complete Bedini SG Book!

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  • Hi Rodolphe,

    A battery is a much lower impedance device than a power supply. Lets assume your SSG has a 20% duty cycle with an average measured current draw of 1 ampere. This means that it is drawing 1/20% = 5 amp pulses each time it fires. This is no problem for the battery because it's impedance is very low. A power supply, on the other hand, will struggle to produce this current pulse and will have an attendant voltage drop in it's transformer each time the transistor conducts. A very large filter capacitor on/in the power supply will help, but the performance will always be better with a fully charged good battery of sufficient size. Another advantage the battery has is that it will receive some of the radiant voltage and run down more slowly that it would with a purely resistive load. The power supply won't accept any of this radiant voltage.

    You need to start out with all batteries fully charged. On an AGM that is usually around 13 volts at rest. Under a 1 amp load the primary battery will show from 12.6 to 12.7 volts at first and should run down very slowly. The charge (secondary) battery should first be discharged at the c20 rate for however long it takes to remove 1 AH. For a 12 AH battery that would be 600 ma for 1.67 hours. Do this and let it rest for about another hour before you begin charging it. It's standing voltage will probably recover to around 12.9 volts while resting.

    Run the SSG until the charge battery reaches 15.3 volts under charge. This is the finish point that indicates full charge. Note the time it takes to recharge and take occasional current draw readings from the primary by switching an ammeter into and out of the primary circuit while it's running. Don't let the current go through the ammeter all the time as this will lower the results you get. Use a switch across the ammeter to short it out except to take an occasional reading.

    Discharging the battery to 9.6 volts at a c2 rate is the wrong thing to do and will damage the battery. It shouldn't be discharged below 10.6 volts minimum and not over the c20 rate!

    You should be working in the top of the battery's capacity range, ie between 10 and 12 AH to see the best results from the SSG. The more you take out of the battery, the longer it will take to recharge it! The idea is to measure the AH you remove from a full charged battery and then see how many AH the SSG uses to full recharge it. If you completely discharge the battery, it will take a very long time to recharge it with the SSG.

    And yes, it would take my SSG at least 6 hours in generator mode to fully recharge a 12 AH battery that was completely run down. This is not a good way to use the system.
    Gary Hammond,

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pearldragon View Post
      Hi Gary, Aaron,

      Thanks for your replies. Since There is a some overlap in your responses to my questions and the new questions I have, I’ll try to reply/question you both at once . I hope I do not confuse you too much with it.

      @Gary, I think I need to hook up my scope again to my machine and go over some of the answers you gave me to understand them correctly. Will come back on them once I’ve done that, but should hook up my rpm sensor first…

      General note:
      If I click on the images from my previous posts, I see that they are very small, not sure why they came out that way, does the forum shrink them? Will try to upload PDFs this time, if that doesn’t work, will try images again.

      Aaron
      At this moment I’ve followed the manuals up to page 13 of the second (intermediate) handbook. So for the resistances I have the 100Ohm (matched) resistors in and the 1k Ohm potentiometer (see attachment 1). The reason why I stopped here is that I wanted to build in a speed/rpm sensor, so I can tune it properly, rather than just by listening (sound of machine reving up/reving down). As soon as I have the speed sensor installed and operational I’ll tune it properly and report back here with what value I ended up with on my pot-meter and input amperage/voltage.

      Aaron/Gary
      Another question that came to mind; I guess the double firing would be a welcome phenomenon, getting two for the price of one. Or is this a misunderstanding of what’s happening? In other words, will the voltage peaks be half as high as well for example?

      Aaron/Gary
      Gary you writes that the field strength is strongest at the edges of the magnets. If this is true then in theory I would guess the machine would always fire double. This because the magnetic field strength in the middle of the magnet would be a bit less than at the edges, so the trigger coil goes by two peaks when passing one magnet, hence firing twice. Although I could also image that these peaks where so close (being on the edges on one small magnet), that the machine would not have enough time to “breath” for a double firing, but the fact that it does double fire as can be seen on the scope gives me the impression that this little “breathing room” is not an issue.
      But maybe I’m going too far astray in my own imagination, Aaron mentioned that it probably has to do with a base resistance that is too high. Maybe Aaron you can explain me a bit more how the base resistance can be a cause for double firing?

      Aaron / Gary,
      In the beginners manual, page 70 & 72 (see attachment 2) I read about the switching when the magnet is right above the coil, implying that the magnet field is strongest there. This in opposition to what I understand from Gary that it is strongest at the edges. Should I interpreted this as that the handbook talks about a simplified theoretical situation to understand the basics while Gary talks about the real/practical situation?

      Gary
      When you say that your machine double fires at 211RPM. Do you mean that by reving up to your machine’s max rpm, it passes a point at 211rpm where it temporary fires double, but at its max rpm it does singe shots? Or do you mean that your machine runs at max rpm at 211rpm, so it always fires double, and you might have too high of a base resistance?

      Aaron
      “You mention the sequential mechanics of repulsion mode switch” I assume you’re referring to my first post (#196), attachment “2019-02-27 - Attachment 1”?
      If so, I just saw that the arrows were going in the wrong direction (text was correct), they might have caused confusion. Please see attachment 3 in this post where I removed the arrows. Just to double check we’re on the same page; I intended to speak here about the ATTRACTION mode, as mentioned in your first (Beginners) handbook, page 72 (version 1.13).
      Regarding your question what switches on the base to turn on the Main circuit in both modes:
      As you mentioned, in REPULSION mode it is the decrease in magnetic field strength when a magnet moves away from the core.
      In ATTRACTION mode it is the increase in magnetic field strength when the magnet moves towards the core.
      I was curious why in the repulsion mode the transistors need heat-sinks and not in the attraction mode. Reading the bottom of page 73 of the Beginners manual again, I guess it relates to point 1.? That in repulsion mode the battery help in switching the magnetic field in the main coil, and that somehow this process also causes more heat in the transistors?

      Thanks,
      Rodolphe
      [ATTACH]7277[/ATTACH]
      [ATTACH]7278[/ATTACH]
      [ATTACH]7279[/ATTACH]
      When it comes to the SSG machine, the machine is an Energizer which is motor generator, a pulsed DC motor combined with AC generator function. You want to tune the machine to one pulse this will maximize the rotor speed and increase AC generator output. The higher the rpm the less current the machine draws, in part, because of the AC wave form produced. The negative AC wave form half is hidden from view when the transistor turns on and the positive AC wave form half can be seen alongside the spike if you have an oscilloscope.

      Maximize the AC waveform and you will be on your way to understanding the machine, you want to decrease wire diameter, vastly increase wire length and put multiple strands together. Wind 10-15 strands of 30AWG at 1000’ on a 3-1/2” coil bobbin with the standard 3/4” bore. This will strangle the current (you will go from amps to milli amps) on your current draw while greatly increasing your magnetic field strength of your coil. This works for the window motor, ZFM, etc.

      If the AC waveform is not being clipped by both the primary and the secondary battery, the windings are not long enough to generate at that particular rpm. You then must increase strand length to generate higher AC wave peaks. These two areas, magnetic field strength and AC voltage production are what is required for a machine that performs.
      One more thing we need mass on these pulse motors so put a 20 pound flywheel on your bike wheel. And the switching to be 50% on time and 50% off time, just like the 1984 Bedini free energy generator.

      Dave Wing
      Last edited by Dave Wing; 12-22-2019, 05:50 PM.

      Comment


      • Hi Gary, Hi Dave,

        First off all happy new year to you and the other folks here on the forum!

        Dave, I will come back to your post later on; need to read it more carefully to make sure I understand it all. And this story to Gary is already a small booklet on its own

        @Gary,
        Thanks for your explanation about the difference between using a power supply or a battery at the input. I understand most of what you say. I plan to buy a battery for the input, but for now I just wanted to focus on the output/secondary battery first, make sure that what comes out there is in the ball park before swapping the power supply for a battery.

        But there is one thing in particular in your comments about having the battery at the input that I do have some questions about. You say that the battery at the primary battery will also receive some radiant voltage.
        My questions regarding that statement are as follows:
        -As well in DVD 6 (Radiant energy, @+/- 2min) as in DVD 24 (Bedini Monopole masterclass I, @+/-49min) John mentions specifically that you cannot swap the input and the output battery, since the form of energy is different (taking into account that he is talking about a SG that has NOT yet a separate capacitor load circuit like in the second half of the Intermediate Manual). I thought I understood this somewhat with the fact that the secondary battery is charged with direct radiant energy. Now that you mention that the primary battery received some radiant energy as well, my question is: why can’t they be switched?
        -In the above mentioned DVDs, when John talks about that you cannot swap the primary and secondary battery just like that (without emptying out both batteries), he also mentions that if you want to swap them, you need to run the energy of battery B through an “Inverter” (still talking about a SG without a separate capacitor load circuit). Now in my understanding an “Inverter” converts DC to AC or visa versa. I reckon that the SG would not run correctly with an AC input signal. Is John using here the term “Inverter” while actually referring to something else, or am I missing/misunderstanding something here?
        -With the SG built up to the stage where you have it (completed the 3rd Manual), can you swap primary and secondary batteries? In other words, this separate capacitor loading circuit, does it act in a way that when you swap the batteries you don’t emptying them out?

        Discharging/charge cycle:
        I put a 20-Ohms resistor in my discharge circuit (20.2-Ohm measured on my Fluke 115), that brings it more or less at the C20 discharge scale as you mentioned (0.6A). The last couple of days I ran a couple of charge/discharge tests with this new setup, only discharging the battery to 12.69V: that was where it ended up with a set discharge time of 1.67hours = +/- 100minutes. The graphs are included in this post as attachments.
        A little bit of background information on the charge/discharge cycles (see PDF enclosed):
        D8 2020-jan-01 17:27 / Discharge 12Ah battery @ +/- C20 rate:
        The last time I charged the battery with the SG before this discharge cycle was on 22 december 2019, charging it up all the way to 16.22V. As mentioned, this D8 discharge cycle set the voltage level (12.69V) which I used as a the point to stop the next discharge cycles.

        Note that D9, C9, D10, C10 are all done in one day, with letting the battery rest always at least an hour in between.

        If you compare this D8 cycle with D9 and D10, you see that it took way longer to discharge the battery the first time ( D8 100mins), than the second (D9 46min) or the third (D10 70min). Why is this? I would have expected the opposite effect. This does not make any sense to me.

        So in the charge cycles (C8, C9, C10) I charged up to 15.3V as you told me. But as mentioned before, on 22 December charged it all the way up to 16.22V (accidentally, because I was out of the door for a bit). So my question is, should I not always charging it up that far?

        Measuring Ah
        You said:
        “The idea is to measure the AH you remove from a full charged battery and then see how many AH the SSG uses to full recharge it.”
        For the output battery I intended to (roughly) calculate the energy discharged by the battery in my discharged circuit: I have the Voltage graph. That in combination with the fixed resistance (20.2-Ohm), I can calculate that.
        On the input the calculation will be less accurate: I can log the voltage of the input battery as well, but instead of the resistance, I guess I would need to take occasional amperage readings in the way you described and calculate the energy input based on those.
        Do you agree with this method, or was there a specific reason why you think I should calculate/compare Ah? Is there an easier way to calculate Ah, as the method I described above for the used energy? E.G. is there a direct/hard relation between the voltage level and the Ah’s used/still in a battery? Using the Voltage level of the battery as an input only to determine the state of charge of the battery would make everything easier…

        Greetings,
        Rodolphe
        2020-01-03 charge, discharge graphs.pdf
        Attached Files
        Last edited by pearldragon; 01-20-2020, 12:12 PM.

        Comment


        • Hi Dave, Gary,

          I yesterday tried to post a response to you Gary, including charge/discharge graphs with the input you gave. I received a message that it awaits approval from a moderator so I hope it will show up here soon.

          @Dave,
          Thanks for your input / recommendations.

          When you talk about the AC signal, you’re talking about the signal/images as shown in the attachment of my post #196?

          At the moment I’m not familiar with the Window or ZFM motor. I’m just trying to build the SG according to the manuals of Peter Lindemann and Aaron Murakami. The coil/bobbin I use in my SG is a prefabbed and supplied by TeslaGenX: http://www.teslagenx.com/parts/tx-co...category=parts. 7x20AWG+1x23AWG 130' <- That is the one I have. The specs you gave are very different from the TeslaGenX Coil. I would be very keen to experiment with it, especially if you say you go from Amps as input to mAmps, but for now I think I should stick to the manual: My understanding of the machine is still limited / still have a lot of questions, if I deviate from the manuals at this point I will have even more questions / understand less of it that I do already��. I still need to finish the 2nd and 3rd manual.

          Regards,
          Rodolphe

          Comment


          • Hi Gary,

            Hereby I post some more discharge/charge graphs, all done in 1 day: January 4th, 2020.

            Best regards,
            Rodolphe
            Attached Files
            Last edited by pearldragon; 01-13-2020, 01:10 PM.

            Comment


            • Hi Rodolphe,

              Originally posted by pearldragon View Post
              ..........................................But there is one thing in particular in your comments about having the battery at the input that I do have some questions about. You say that the battery at the primary battery will also receive some radiant voltage.
              My questions regarding that statement are as follows:
              -As well in DVD 6 (Radiant energy, @+/- 2min) as in DVD 24 (Bedini Monopole masterclass I, @+/-49min) John mentions specifically that you cannot swap the input and the output battery, since the form of energy is different (taking into account that he is talking about a SG that has NOT yet a separate capacitor load circuit like in the second half of the Intermediate Manual). I thought I understood this somewhat with the fact that the secondary battery is charged with direct radiant energy. Now that you mention that the primary battery received some radiant energy as well, my question is: why can’t they be switched?
              -In the above mentioned DVDs, when John talks about that you cannot swap the primary and secondary battery just like that (without emptying out both batteries), he also mentions that if you want to swap them, you need to run the energy of battery B through an “Inverter” (still talking about a SG without a separate capacitor load circuit). Now in my understanding an “Inverter” converts DC to AC or visa versa. I reckon that the SG would not run correctly with an AC input signal. Is John using here the term “Inverter” while actually referring to something else, or am I missing/misunderstanding something here?
              -With the SG built up to the stage where you have it (completed the 3rd Manual), can you swap primary and secondary batteries? In other words, this separate capacitor loading circuit, does it act in a way that when you swap the batteries you don’t emptying them out?

              Discharging/charge cycle:
              I put a 20-Ohms resistor in my discharge circuit (20.2-Ohm measured on my Fluke 115), that brings it more or less at the C20 discharge scale as you mentioned (0.6A). The last couple of days I ran a couple of charge/discharge tests with this new setup, only discharging the battery to 12.69V: that was where it ended up with a set discharge time of 1.67hours = +/- 100minutes. The graphs are included in this post as attachments.
              A little bit of background information on the charge/discharge cycles (see PDF enclosed):
              D8 2020-jan-01 17:27 / Discharge 12Ah battery @ +/- C20 rate:
              The last time I charged the battery with the SG before this discharge cycle was on 22 december 2019, charging it up all the way to 16.22V. As mentioned, this D8 discharge cycle set the voltage level (12.69V) which I used as a the point to stop the next discharge cycles.

              Note that D9, C9, D10, C10 are all done in one day, with letting the battery rest always at least an hour in between.

              If you compare this D8 cycle with D9 and D10, you see that it took way longer to discharge the battery the first time ( D8 100mins), than the second (D9 46min) or the third (D10 70min). Why is this? I would have expected the opposite effect. This does not make any sense to me.

              So in the charge cycles (C8, C9, C10) I charged up to 15.3V as you told me. But as mentioned before, on 22 December charged it all the way up to 16.22V (accidentally, because I was out of the door for a bit). So my question is, should I not always charging it up that far?

              Measuring Ah
              You said:
              “The idea is to measure the AH you remove from a full charged battery and then see how many AH the SSG uses to full recharge it.”
              For the output battery I intended to (roughly) calculate the energy discharged by the battery in my discharged circuit: I have the Voltage graph. That in combination with the fixed resistance (20.2-Ohm), I can calculate that.
              On the input the calculation will be less accurate: I can log the voltage of the input battery as well, but instead of the resistance, I guess I would need to take occasional amperage readings in the way you described and calculate the energy input based on those.
              Do you agree with this method, or was there a specific reason why you think I should calculate/compare Ah? Is there an easier way to calculate Ah, as the method I described above for the used energy? E.G. is there a direct/hard relation between the voltage level and the Ah’s used/still in a battery? Using the Voltage level of the battery as an input only to determine the state of charge of the battery would make everything easier…

              Greetings,
              Rodolphe
              2020-01-03 charge, discharge graphs.pdf
              #1
              I know John used to say that a radiantly charged battery shouldn't be used to drive the SSG machine, but would run lights or an inverter just fine. This implied that you couldn't just keep swapping two batteries back and forth between the run and charge positions unless they were either charged with a capacitor or common ground setup and not radiantly. I also heard him say as much at some of the conferences. So at the last conference where Peter Lindemann demonstrated how John charged multiple batteries in parallel by swapping one of the parallel batteries back and forth with one other battery between the run and charge position, Peter was doing it while running in radiant mode. When John did this, he was using an isolated winding on the coil and running the output through a mechanically triggered capacitor discharge circuit which is a little different. So I questioned Peter about swapping the same two radiantly charged batteries between the run and charge positions over and over. He said that when he and John were running the 10 coiler and then later in testing when they developed the battery chargers they did this all the time. It was Peter's contention that the only problem with a radiantly charged battery was that it didn't like being charged any more with a conventional "HOT" charger. It would somehow become conditioned to the radiant charging method and need to be fully discharged before accepting a "HOT" charge.

              I've built several SSG machines and have swapped batteries back and forth between run and charge positions with no problems regardless of whether it runs in radiant mode, common ground mode, or cap discharge mode. These batteries also charge well with any of the Bedini chargers I have. But I never use any "HOT" chargers at all anymore.

              #2
              Now that you mention that the primary battery received some radiant energy as well, my question is: why can’t they be switched?
              I have a sniffer coil that can be hooked to my O-scope and placed next to the leads on either the output or the input while the machine is running and it shows a definite voltage spike on either lead when the radiant event occurs. It's the same looking spike but with reversed polarity and a little less amplitude on the input leads. And if you monitor across the transistor with the other channel of the scope the spikes all appear at the same time. It also appears across the trigger winding as well.

              #3
              Sorry but your attachments still don't show up for me, but based on your comments you are discharging to a given voltage rather than using a given time at a given rate of discharge. You need to start with a fully charged battery and then discharge it for a given time (like 100 minutes) at a given rate like 600 ma measured on an ammeter. I use a Radio Mountain CBA for this as it regulates the current exactly as the voltage drops and gives a readout of actual amp hours delivered by the battery. After a short rest you then recharge it with the SSG starting with a fully charged run battery and see how long it takes to bring the test battery back up to 15.3 volts under charge, and how much current the SSG is pulling from the run battery. Then compare the amp hours it takes to recharge, to the amp hours you pulled out of the test battery when you discharged it. .........discharge AH/recharge AH = ? ....... In radiant mode if you get over 50% it's doing pretty good. In common ground (generator) mode it can go over 100%.

              #4
              Occasionally overcharging in radiant mode isn't going to hurt the battery, but it does waste energy and cause some extra off gassing. When it gets to 15.3 volts it's fully recharged and is at the proper point to check the recharge time for calculating the amp hours.

              #5
              If you compare this D8 cycle with D9 and D10, you see that it took way longer to discharge the battery the first time ( D8 100mins), than the second (D9 46min) or the third (D10 70min). Why is this? I would have expected the opposite effect. This does not make any sense to me.
              The discharge time to a given voltage will vary according to the initial starting voltage. And with a set resistor, the average discharge current will also vary with initial starting voltage. Each discharge cycle should be from a fully charged battery after a given period of rest after the charging cycle, And the current draw should always be at the same rate each discharge cycle. This establishes a baseline number of amp hours to compare to the amp hours it takes to recharge it on the SSG.

              Gary Hammond,
              Last edited by Gary Hammond; Yesterday, 09:00 PM. Reason: correct typo
              Gary Hammond,

              Comment

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