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Complete Bedini SG Book!

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  • Hi All,

    I’ve built the Bedini SG according to the first manual and started on the second manual, awaiting to implement a speed sensor/tachometer so I can really fine tune it accurately (so matched transistors/resistor and pot-meter are already built in).

    Now I have a couple of theoretical questions regarding the understanding of the machine, which I hope some of you can help me with.

    1- When John talks about “firing” of the coil in his DVDs, he’s talking about the spike of the H-shape correct?
    2- John mentions in his DVDs that the firing takes place AFTER a magnet passes the coil. Am I correct in saying that this statement only applies if the SG machine is running in REPULSION mode?
    Since my SG machine is running in ATTRACTION mode, the firing takes place when the magnet is more or less right above the coil. Correct? (see Attachment 1)
    3- Looking at the H-shape, measured with my scope (Picoscope 2206B) over just 1 coil, can someone please explain to me exactly what goes on at the positions indicated in attachment 2, image 2:
    3a-I assume section A and D represent the nominal secundary battery voltage level (indicated also by the vertical line E?
    3b-What is happening exactly at section B and C? (in Energy from the vacuum DVD 6 @ 57min John mentions that in this section B the “device” is trying to be a “negistor”, but with that explanation it still is clear as mud to me .

    For those who reply/answer; please talk in lay person terms. I have a mechanical background, but for the electrical stuff I really am learning as I’m building. At the same time trying to catch up on theory via the book of Forest Mims and the Energy from the vacuum DVDs.

    Many thanks in advance!
    Rodolphe

    2019-02-27 - Attachment 1.jpg
    2019-02-27 - Attachment 2.jpg

    Comment


    • Hi Radolphe,

      #1 ...... The coil "fires" or "discharges" a high voltage "radiant" spike when the transistor abruptly turns off. This high voltage spike is collected by the high voltage diode and sent to the charge battery. So yes, this is the spike of the H-shape.

      #2 ....... Yes, in the video John shows a repulsion mode machine firing after the magnet passes the coil. When running in attraction made, the firing occurs as the magnet is approaching the coil. It may fire multiple times until the edge of the magnet reaches the edge of the coil core.

      #3 ....... 3a ............Section A, section D and line E are the nominal primary battery voltage. The transistor and coil scope shots only show what is happening in the primary circuit.

      3b ............ Section B is the period of time the transistor is "turned on" or conducting and the current is building up in the coil. The transistor turns "off" abruptly at the end of section B and section C begins. At this point, the coil voltage "radiant" spike occurs and is picked off by the high voltage diode and fed to the secondary battery. Section C is the remaining coil collapse voltage plus generated voltage from the passing magnet and also some coil ringing from the abrupt discharge. Section D is the nominal primary (run) battery voltage plus some voltage generated by the passing magnet. The transistor is turned "on" again at the end of section D to start the cycle of events over again.

      A "negisor" is any device that exhibits negative resistance or decreasing voltage drop with increasing current flow. The MJL21194 transistor is one of a handful of transistors that exhibit this characteristic at certain points in their operating curve. Such devices usually are cold to the touch when running in this condition. This behavior is often associated with radiant energy, plasma discharges, and also occurs with tunnel diodes. The SSG will still work, however, even without the "negistor" effect.
      Gary Hammond,

      Comment


      • Dear Gary,

        First of all thanks for your swift and elaborate answers! In reply to those:

        #2 My (theorethical) understanding was that the firing only would take place once; right above the center of the magnet, because that is the point where the flux-density switches; at the center of the magnet the max flux-density is reached, and when the magnet moves beyond this center point the flux-density decreases, and so right at that switching point the transistor would switch off. Now with this theoretical understanding that I had (before reading your reply), I thought that the reason why I saw a double firing on my scope, was because I didn’t space the magnets accurately enough. But looking at my scope reading again, the double firing looks rather constant; seems to prove your explanation (see attachment 1). My next question then is;
        Why does it fires double, instead of a single time according to my theoretical understanding? Has this to do with the fact that the “classical” view of how the magnetic lines moves around the magnet is not completely correct? Is the actual magnetic field shaped in such a way that there are multiple points of max flux-density (two in this case, instead of one at the center)? Howard Johnson talks about this unsymmetrical magnetic field, does that relate to this?

        #3a I’m I right in saying, that the term “nominal primary battery voltage” is incorrect for this sections A and D (and line E). For the following reason; there is no voltage across the coil in these sections, since the primary battery circuit in these sections is not connected. (If it would be, I would expect to see this voltage when I put a volt-meter across 1 coil when the wheel is not spinning, but it read 0V).

        #3b Thinking about the power consumption of the primary battery; if I understand you correctly this takes only place at section B, where the transistor is on, correct?

        #4 Regarding your negistor explanation:
        #4a Reading your explanation I realize that I was mixing up two different things: the H-shape is a visualization what happens across 1 coil, not what is happening across the transistor. But now that we brought it up, reading your explanation:
        Theoretically speaking; you’re saying that if I would see a plot/graph of the voltage across the transistor I would see a voltage INCREASE at the section where the transistor is switched on? Would I be able to see this on my scope? Do you by any change have any operating curve of this transistor showing this effect?
        #4b You say that the transistor runs cold to the touch when this effect takes place. Although in my attraction mode I do not use heatsinks, it was recommended to use heatsinks on in the repulsion mode. Can you comment on this please? What I mean; regardless of repulsion or attraction mode, the effect (H-shape), would be the same.

        #5 John mentions that the spikes (H-shape) can get hundreds of voltage high. The fact that it lights up my neons when I disconnect the secondary battery proves that the voltage is at least over 110V. If I look at attachment 1 again, I see a peak of +/-4.8V, using a 10x probe, that brings it to +/-48V I guess. Even when I crank the sample rate of my scope (piccoscop 2206B) up to the max, I don’t see higher peaks. Is this because I would need a scope with an even higher sampling rate/resolution or is there another cause for it?

        thanks again,
        Rodolphe

        2019-03-02 - Attachment 1.jpg

        Comment


        • Rodolphe,

          The most common cause of multiple firing under any circumstance is usually too high of base resistance. If you leave the wheel still and slowly turn up the resistance at the base of the transistor, it will start to self oscillate. I don't know if that is your issue, but you could put like a 100 ohm resistor in series with a 10 turn pot of a couple k ohms to play around with the resistance just as a learning tool. It will give you a good feel for the circuit and how it operates for that particular variable. Whatever your resistance is right now, drop it 5-10% incrementally and see what happens - again, not sure if that is the cause, but its worth knowing about.

          There is no right or wrong number of magnets so it's not ultra critical. It's sometimes counter-intuitive because the rotor can actually go faster with fewer magnets depending on spacing. On very small SG units, I always had the fastest speeds with 3 magnets vs 4 for example - giving the system time to breathe so to speak.

          Also, think about what is triggering the base to begin with in both attraction vs repulsion mode. You mention the sequential mechanics of repulsion mode switch when the magnet goes past half way on the core, voltage reverses in the coil and we then get the proper voltage polarity at the base to turn it on. Coil charges then pushes magnet away. What do you think triggers the circuit in attraction mode?

          This isn't addressing all of your post - not answering for Gary, just a few things I wanted to mention that is food for thought.
          Aaron Murakami





          You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

          Comment


          • Hi Rodolphe,

            Just got back from vacation and was on the road a couple of days, so just now getting back to you.

            #2 My (theorethical) understanding was that the firing only would take place once; right above the center of the magnet, because that is the point where the flux-density switches; at the center of the magnet the max flux-density is reached, and when the magnet moves beyond this center point the flux-density decreases, and so right at that switching point the transistor would switch off.
            This isn't quite right. It's my understanding that the field strength is highest at the edges of the magnet. Anyway, I double checked my SSG this morning with an automotive timing light. It was firing when the edge of the magnet was about 1/4" from the edge of the coil core. As the RPM picked up it was firing at about 1/8" away from the edge of the core. And I had a sniffer coil next to the secondary battery lead attached to channel two of my o-scope. The pulse on channel two was exactly in time with the channel one high voltage spike at transistor turn off. The channel one probe was at the transistor collector output to the power coil and high voltage diode connection. The probe ground was attached to the transistor to primary battery connection. And the machine was double firing at 211 RPM as seen on the scope, even though the timing light was only flashing once each time a magnet approached the coil.

            Why does it fires double, instead of a single time according to my theoretical understanding? Has this to do with the fact that the “classical” view of how the magnetic lines moves around the magnet is not completely correct? Is the actual magnetic field shaped in such a way that there are multiple points of max flux-density (two in this case, instead of one at the center)? Howard Johnson talks about this unsymmetrical magnetic field, does that relate to this?
            I'm not exactly sure about the double firing, but it has to do with the interaction between the permanent magnets, the power windings and the trigger winding of the coil. The factors that affect this are coil to magnet spacing, magnet strength, speed of rotation, and base resistance.

            The magnetic field is unsymmetrical, being stronger at the edges than in the middle and in the form of a vortex. But I don't think that's what causes multiple pulsing of the SSG.

            #3a I’m I right in saying, that the term “nominal primary battery voltage” is incorrect for this sections A and D (and line E). For the following reason; there is no voltage across the coil in these sections, since the primary battery circuit in these sections is not connected. (If it would be, I would expect to see this voltage when I put a volt-meter across 1 coil when the wheel is not spinning, but it read 0V).
            When the scope probe is on the transistor collector and the probe ground lead is attached to the emitter, the scope shows the voltage across the transistor. When the transistor is on this value is the forward voltage drop of the transistor (0 to .6 volts). When the transistor is off and the machine is not running the scope will show the primary battery voltage. ........... When the machine is running and the transistor is off, the scope will show the h wave that appears across the transistor. (When the wheel is not spinning a volt meter across the coil will show 0 volts and the same meter across the transistor will show the full primary battery voltage.)

            #4a Reading your explanation I realize that I was mixing up two different things: the H-shape is a visualization what happens across 1 coil, not what is happening across the transistor. But now that we brought it up, reading your explanation:
            Theoretically speaking; you’re saying that if I would see a plot/graph of the voltage across the transistor I would see a voltage INCREASE at the section where the transistor is switched on? Would I be able to see this on my scope? Do you by any change have any operating curve of this transistor showing this effect?
            The only difference between the scope trace across the coil and the scope trace across the transistor is whether you hook the probe ground lead to the primary battery positive post or the primary battery negative post. The trace is the same except for the zero voltage point on the scope, which is the value of the primary battery voltage. (And a scope trace of the trigger winding voltage is very similar, except it is inverted.)

            #3b Thinking about the power consumption of the primary battery; if I understand you correctly this takes only place at section B, where the transistor is on, correct?
            Yes, that is correct. The transistor should be "on" only about 18% to 23% of the time. This percentage of "on" time is known as the duty cycle. And another anomaly of this machine is that some of the radiant energy also is spiked back to the run (primary) battery while it is running. This allows the primary battery to discharge more slowly than it would on a purely resistive load at the same average current draw.

            #4b You say that the transistor runs cold to the touch when this effect takes place. Although in my attraction mode I do not use heatsinks, it was recommended to use heatsinks on in the repulsion mode. Can you comment on this please? What I mean; regardless of repulsion or attraction mode, the effect (H-shape), would be the same.
            You shouldn't need heat sinks running in attraction mode. And, yes, the h shape is the same in either mode.

            #5 John mentions that the spikes (H-shape) can get hundreds of voltage high. The fact that it lights up my neons when I disconnect the secondary battery proves that the voltage is at least over 110V. If I look at attachment 1 again, I see a peak of +/-4.8V, using a 10x probe, that brings it to +/-48V I guess. Even when I crank the sample rate of my scope (piccoscop 2206B) up to the max, I don’t see higher peaks. Is this because I would need a scope with an even higher sampling rate/resolution or is there another cause for it?
            Don't run the machine with the charge battery disconnected as the high voltage spikes can kill or weaken your transistors even though the neons are there to protect them. The high voltage spikes will be from 300 to 450 volts and are clamped at 90 to 100 volts by the neons (which can fail). When the charge (secondary) battery is hooked up, it absorbs the high voltage spikes. But because of the resistance in the wiring, you may still see spikes on the scope trace in the 20 to 50 volt range.

            Try hooking your scope to different places on the machine to get a better understanding of what's taking place in the various parts of the circuit. And use both channels at different places to see the relationships, but use only one probe ground connection so you don't get a ground loop short circuit.
            Gary Hammond,

            Comment


            • Hi Gary, Aaron,

              Thanks for your replies. Since There is a some overlap in your responses to my questions and the new questions I have, I’ll try to reply/question you both at once . I hope I do not confuse you too much with it.

              @Gary, I think I need to hook up my scope again to my machine and go over some of the answers you gave me to understand them correctly. Will come back on them once I’ve done that, but should hook up my rpm sensor first…

              General note:
              If I click on the images from my previous posts, I see that they are very small, not sure why they came out that way, does the forum shrink them? Will try to upload PDFs this time, if that doesn’t work, will try images again.

              Aaron
              At this moment I’ve followed the manuals up to page 13 of the second (intermediate) handbook. So for the resistances I have the 100Ohm (matched) resistors in and the 1k Ohm potentiometer (see attachment 1). The reason why I stopped here is that I wanted to build in a speed/rpm sensor, so I can tune it properly, rather than just by listening (sound of machine reving up/reving down). As soon as I have the speed sensor installed and operational I’ll tune it properly and report back here with what value I ended up with on my pot-meter and input amperage/voltage.

              Aaron/Gary
              Another question that came to mind; I guess the double firing would be a welcome phenomenon, getting two for the price of one. Or is this a misunderstanding of what’s happening? In other words, will the voltage peaks be half as high as well for example?

              Aaron/Gary
              Gary you writes that the field strength is strongest at the edges of the magnets. If this is true then in theory I would guess the machine would always fire double. This because the magnetic field strength in the middle of the magnet would be a bit less than at the edges, so the trigger coil goes by two peaks when passing one magnet, hence firing twice. Although I could also image that these peaks where so close (being on the edges on one small magnet), that the machine would not have enough time to “breath” for a double firing, but the fact that it does double fire as can be seen on the scope gives me the impression that this little “breathing room” is not an issue.
              But maybe I’m going too far astray in my own imagination, Aaron mentioned that it probably has to do with a base resistance that is too high. Maybe Aaron you can explain me a bit more how the base resistance can be a cause for double firing?

              Aaron / Gary,
              In the beginners manual, page 70 & 72 (see attachment 2) I read about the switching when the magnet is right above the coil, implying that the magnet field is strongest there. This in opposition to what I understand from Gary that it is strongest at the edges. Should I interpreted this as that the handbook talks about a simplified theoretical situation to understand the basics while Gary talks about the real/practical situation?

              Gary
              When you say that your machine double fires at 211RPM. Do you mean that by reving up to your machine’s max rpm, it passes a point at 211rpm where it temporary fires double, but at its max rpm it does singe shots? Or do you mean that your machine runs at max rpm at 211rpm, so it always fires double, and you might have too high of a base resistance?

              Aaron
              “You mention the sequential mechanics of repulsion mode switch” I assume you’re referring to my first post (#196), attachment “2019-02-27 - Attachment 1”?
              If so, I just saw that the arrows were going in the wrong direction (text was correct), they might have caused confusion. Please see attachment 3 in this post where I removed the arrows. Just to double check we’re on the same page; I intended to speak here about the ATTRACTION mode, as mentioned in your first (Beginners) handbook, page 72 (version 1.13).
              Regarding your question what switches on the base to turn on the Main circuit in both modes:
              As you mentioned, in REPULSION mode it is the decrease in magnetic field strength when a magnet moves away from the core.
              In ATTRACTION mode it is the increase in magnetic field strength when the magnet moves towards the core.
              I was curious why in the repulsion mode the transistors need heat-sinks and not in the attraction mode. Reading the bottom of page 73 of the Beginners manual again, I guess it relates to point 1.? That in repulsion mode the battery help in switching the magnetic field in the main coil, and that somehow this process also causes more heat in the transistors?

              Thanks,
              Rodolphe
              2019-03-10 - Attachment 1.pdf
              2019-03-10 - Attachment 2.pdf
              2019-03-10 - Attachment 3.pdf

              Comment


              • Hi Rodolphe,

                There are about as many explanations and theories on the nature of magnets and magnetism as there are people investigating the phenomenon. Suffice it to say that what we all learned in the public school system on this subject is basically all wrong. So whatever I try to explain about it, is only my incomplete understanding of what others have presented. I'm not sure where I read that the field strength is greater at the edges than in the center of the face of a magnet and may be in error? I've seen several drawings by John Bedini, Ed Leedskalnin, Howard Johnson, Robert Haralick, and Ken Wheeler that attempt to depict and describe the "magnetic field". One thing in common in all these is that a double vortex of the aether is involved at the poles and the bloch wall.

                Aaron/Gary
                Another question that came to mind; I guess the double firing would be a welcome phenomenon, getting two for the price of one. Or is this a misunderstanding of what’s happening? In other words, will the voltage peaks be half as high as well for example?
                My SSG tends to charge the secondary battery faster (in radiant mode) when it is double pulsing. The voltage peaks are about the same on my machine whether it is double pulsing or single pulsing. If I switch it to "generator" (common ground) mode, however, it charges fastest while single pulsing. But keep in mind that the voltage spikes will be limited by the total impedance of the charge battery and associated wiring.

                Multiple pulsing is caused by the trigger circuit turning the transistor on and off in response to varying levels of magnetic field strength in the core of the coil. Several things affect this including natural resonance, saturation of the core material, proximity of the permanent magnet, current flow in the coil power windings, mutual inductance, self inductance, output impedance, primary battery voltage, and the transistor current gain. Some of these are easily manipulated by changing the magnet to coil gap, the trigger resistance, and RPM of the wheel. The machine tends to self-servo in response to changing these variables.

                Aaron / Gary,
                In the beginners manual, page 70 & 72 (see attachment 2) I read about the switching when the magnet is right above the coil, implying that the magnet field is strongest there. This in opposition to what I understand from Gary that it is strongest at the edges. Should I interpreted this as that the handbook talks about a simplified theoretical situation to understand the basics while Gary talks about the real/practical situation?
                Don't worry about where the field is the strongest on the magnet face. The book is basically correct in it's explanation. I just know that mine pulses the charge battery just before the magnet reaches the edge of the metal core as shown by an automotive timing light.

                Gary
                When you say that your machine double fires at 211RPM. Do you mean that by reving up to your machine’s max rpm, it passes a point at 211rpm where it temporary fires double, but at its max rpm it does singe shots? Or do you mean that your machine runs at max rpm at 211rpm, so it always fires double, and you might have too high of a base resistance?
                I can get my machine to 375 RPM single pulsing in radiant mode with two 13 amp hr batteries while lighting 82 LEDs from two genny coils, but it doesn't charge very fast this way! (You can see this thread at http://www.energyscienceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2041 ). I presently have it set up with three, 105 amp hr, 12 volt deep cycle batteries in a split the negative configuration. These batteries are too large for the machine and will not allow it to get above 220 rpm and into single pulsing. (My current setup can be seen here. http://www.energyscienceforum.com/showthread.php?t=4098

                And in answer to your question about the direction of the arrows in the book, they show the correct direction for "electron current flow" (negative to positive) and not the standardized "positive particle flow" (positive to negative).
                Last edited by Gary Hammond; 03-10-2019, 04:02 PM. Reason: add link
                Gary Hammond,

                Comment


                • Thanks Gary for you replies. Just wanted to let you know that my SG project is going a bit slower at the moment because of some other projects that needed some attention. Will pick it up again soon I hope, and continue our conversation.

                  Last thing I did on the SG this weekend was making an "unload" circuit for the batteries with an arduino (see pictures). So in combination with the SG machine I can do load/unload cycles to compare the amount of energy I can get into (& out) batteries with a regular charger in comparison with a SG machine. Contacted battery suppliers to ask for discharge info/characteristics, but they are not very forth coming with information, although i received some.
                  This arduino also has the feature to measure the signals of my rpm sensor and give me an RPM/Frequency reading so that I can finaly start tuning my machine properly.

                  Best regards,
                  Rodolphe

                  Arduino inside.jpg
                  Arduino outside.jpg

                  Comment


                  • What are the exact batteries you have?
                    Aaron Murakami





                    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                    Comment


                    • Hi Aaron,
                      At the moment I do not have a battery yet that I can use for real load/unload cycles. I contacted the suppliers first to see if they had the battery data at all available. I test my SG with a "dead" Yuasa MF YTX9-BS. The battery is still "good" enough so I can charge it, but if I leave it sitting for a while the voltage drops back to +/- 10.5V. I did receive some C-rate amperages and cut-off voltages from Yuasa, but when i wanted to go into more detail with them, they cut-off contact saying that they could not give me any more information because of "conflict of interest". But with the C-rates and the cut-off voltage I actually do have what I need, so when i have my machine tuned with the rpm sensor (still have to install it), I can tune it, buy new batteries of the above mentioned type and do load/unload cycles.

                      Regards
                      Rodolphe

                      Comment


                      • Hi All,

                        Finally got my rpm measuring system installed and operational. Hereby i would like to share some of my measurements.
                        I hope you can give me some feedback regarding if my SG is running properly, so i know whether I can continue with the following steps/upgrades.

                        My SG is currently built up to and including chapter 1 of the intermediate manual. That means:

                        -matched resistors (100 ohm)
                        -matched transistors
                        -1k potmeter
                        -Input is NOT connected to a battery but a variable power supply, Eagle (Rapid) EP-613. Input voltage for my SG set @12.3V.
                        -Output is connected to a damaged* motor start battery: Yuasa YTX-BS
                        *when left alone for a while, voltage drops to and stays at 10.54V

                        Measurements, With a clearance between the coil and the magnets of +/-1/8":
                        Max rpm I can get out of it is 204rpm @ 12.3V input, 1.16A input.
                        If I (try to) optimize between amperage and rpm: 202RPM, 12.3V input, 0.84A, pot meter @ +/-92ohm

                        Measurements, With a clearance between the coil and the magnets of +/-1/4":
                        Max rpm I can get out of it is 194rpm
                        If I (try to) optimize between amperage and rpm: 187RPM, 12.3V input, 0.77A, pot meter @ +/-89.2ohm

                        What I find it that the potmeter is extremely sensitive in the area where I try to tune, and I'm in doubt whether my potmeter has the quality that is needed for proper tuning... The one I have now is this one:
                        https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/potentiometers/8427037/

                        I will replace it with a 0-100ohm, or 0-200ohm potmeter with more accuracy, probably this one:
                        10 Turn 1 Gang,0-200Ω, ±3%, 2W, Linear: https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/potentiometers/6928513/

                        The battery I have in mind to start doing real tests with is this one:
                        12V, 12Ah, deep cycle, lead acid: https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/lead-...eries/5377305/
                        The initial test I have in mind is comparing how much energy I can get out of the battery when it is charged with regular charger, compared to my SG.
                        I've built a discharge circuit that can log the Voltage of the battery over time.

                        Looking forward to your input,
                        regards,
                        Rodolphe
                        RPM measurement.jpg
                        Last edited by pearldragon; 12-21-2019, 09:37 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Hi All,

                          I still have my SG built up to and including chapter 1 of the intermediate manual*. I wanted to do some testing with it before continuing with the rest of the manual/upgrades.

                          So I bought a deep cycle battery**, 12V 12Ah@20h, AGM. And I made a battery drain circuit/assembly***, so I can drain the battery and then charge it with my SG.

                          After draining the battery I tried to load the battery with my SG, but after about 13 hours of charging with my SG, I got the battery loaded till +/-13.46V (Voltage-reading while still being connected to the running SG). By that time it was midnight and I switched the SG off and disconnected the battery.

                          My question is: is it normal to take so long for the SG to charge a relative small battery?
                          Also; in Chapter 7 of the beginners manual page 78, I see that the battery loading graph goes up to 16V... This gives me the impression that the loading cycle wasn’t even done after 13 hours and I should have let it run for another eternity?
                          As a comparison, before I started to charge the battery with my SG, I did a couple of charge cycles with a regular battery charger****, and that one brought the battery up to +/-14.4V in +/-4.25 hours.

                          Looking forward to your input,
                          regards,
                          Rodolphe

                          *
                          -matched resistors (100 ohm)
                          -matched transistors
                          -potmeter 200Ohm, 2W, 3%
                          -Input for my SG is NOT connected to a battery but a variable power supply, Eagle (Rapid) EP-613. Power supply set at 12.3V.

                          **
                          Deep cycle battery, 12V 12Ah@20h, AGM
                          https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/lead-...eries/5377305/

                          ***
                          I’ve been in contact with the battery supplier to ask at which amperage I could drain the battery in 1 hour (C0.05 scale), and which would be the corresponding drop-off voltage. The Circuit is designed to these specs. The circuit contains some Arduino driven hardware. With the Arduino I can set the drop off voltage; when this voltage level is reached it disconnects/breaks the battery draining circuit. Furthermore I’m logging the voltage drop over a set time interval. With this function I can make graphs how the battery unloads over time (I also use it to log how it loads). See enclosed photo.
                          2019-12-21.jpg

                          ****
                          Deep cycle battery charger, Noco G3500
                          https://no.co/g3500
                          Last edited by pearldragon; 12-21-2019, 02:52 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Hi Rodolphe,

                            Originally posted by pearldragon View Post
                            .........................................
                            After draining the battery I tried to load the battery with my SG, but after about 13 hours of charging with my SG, I got the battery loaded till +/-13.46V (Voltage-reading while still being connected to the running SG). By that time it was midnight and I switched the SG off and disconnected the battery.

                            My question is: is it normal to take so long for the SG to charge a relative small battery?
                            Also; in Chapter 7 of the beginners manual page 78, I see that the battery loading graph goes up to 16V... This gives me the impression that the loading cycle wasn’t even done after 13 hours and I should have let it run for another eternity?
                            As a comparison, before I started to charge the battery with my SG, I did a couple of charge cycles with a regular battery charger****, and that one brought the battery up to +/-14.4V in +/-4.25 hours. .................................................. ...
                            .................................................. ..

                            -Input for my SG is NOT connected to a battery but a variable power supply, Eagle (Rapid) EP-613. Power supply set at 12.3V.
                            [/url]
                            The deeper you discharge the battery, the longer it will take to recharge it. Plus your conventional charger only took it to 14.4 volts to start with, which is not fully charged. Even though this is a new battery it has never been fully charged and has some lead sulfate left on the plates. It will take several charge/discharge cycles up to 15.3 volts to condition the battery and get full capacity out of it.

                            The power supply doesn't work nearly as well as a battery for the primary (run) source for several reasons. And running it at 12.3 volts is way too low of a voltage.
                            For best results with a vanilla SSG you need at least a 13AH battery on the primary side and two in parallel is even better. The higher the primary voltage and AH the faster it will charge the secondary.

                            Once you get the charge (secondary) battery fully charged (15.3 volts under charge) let it sit for an hour and then discharge it only 1 or 2 amp hours. Then let it sit for an hour before charging it back up. This allows the electrolyte and plates to normalize. Now you can put it back on the SSG and see how long it takes to bring it back to full charge (15.3 volts) using a fully charged primary battery and/or batteries.

                            You will slowly kill your new battery if you don't fully charge it each cycle. The charger you are using is charging with current instead of voltage spikes and won't ever get it to a full charge. The SSG is more about the battery than it is about anything magic. You need to get your new battery up to 15.3 volts either on the SSG or with a proper charger. This is one of the chargers I use and would recommend to you. http://www.teslagenx.com/chargers/tx...egory=chargers

                            Now for a guide, my SSG in radiant mode will replace 1 AH in that size battery in about 1.5 hours while drawing 1.2 amps from the primary. But if I run it in generator (common ground mode) it will replace that 1 AH in 30 minutes at 1.6 amp draw from the primary.

                            One other thing that greatly affects the charge rate is too much resistance anywhere in the circuit. You need at least AWG 12 wire size for all battery connections and AWG 10 is even better.
                            Gary Hammond,

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                            • Also, AGM battery's are not recommended for Bedini Charger circuits, You want Flooded Lead Acid battery's like garden tractor battery's....

                              Other wise follow what Gary said.......

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                              • Hi Gary, RS,
                                Thanks for your quick replies.

                                @Gary,
                                The reason to start out with a power supply on the input, was that I intended to make a comparison between how much energy I would get out of the battery if I would charge it with a conventional charger, or with my SG. For this comparison I was not so interested in what happened at the input of my SG and besides I wanted to have the same input every time, rather than an input battery(s) that would be at different charge levels every time I start the SG.

                                My idea was to charge the battery with the conventional charger, and then drain the battery via my discharge circuit/assembly while logging the discharge process. This charge/discharge cycle I did 5 times.
                                So yesterday I switched to the SG: Loaded the battery once with it (until 13.46V). Today I discharged the battery and after letting is rest for almost an hour started the 2nd load cycle with my SG (still running, currently at 13.2V).

                                Just for the purpose of these tests, could I continue with my power supply? Or could you explain why you do not recommend it? It is a variable power supply, so if you say that the 12.3V (@0.81A) is too low, could you tell me how far I could/should crank the voltage up (and/or which is the max amperage)?
                                I do intent to switch to batteries as an input during further stages of development of my SG.

                                At the moment my battery discharged at an amperage between +/-7.5A (when discharge starts) and 5.5A (at the end of the discharge), with a drop off voltage of 9.6V. I realized that by draining the battery this quick it might not have a long life time, but I did not want these tests to take forever. So I asked the manufacturer if at this discharge rate I would get at least a 100 charge/discharge cycles out of it, and they confirmed that it will (I do not intent to do 100 charge/discharge cycles ). If I would discharge at 1 amp, it would take probably take more than 7 hours to drain the battery. If the life span of this first “test” battery is not so much my concern at this point, is there any reason why I should not continue draining it at my current rate (so I can do a charge & discharge cycle during 1 day)?

                                So do I understand correctly, that in common ground mode, your SG would still take 30min x 12Ah = 6 hours to charge my battery?

                                I did watch some of Peter L’s videos already where he was demonstrating these radiant-/ common ground modes, also mentioning the thick cables. My wires on the output side, from my SG to the battery are 10 AWG (but they are brass 1050 strands wire instead of copper stranded wire…)

                                @RS
                                I did read about the preference of the lead-acid batteries on page 35 of the beginners manual, but the reason for it stated there, is lesser chance of damaging them. Since during the setup/tuning of my SG I used an almost death battery, I wasn’t so afraid of killing the AGM battery, furthermore with my intention of doing discharge cycles/tests, I wanted a deep cycle battery. This one had the right specs, incl. spec sheet information for discharging and the Ah range that I was looking for. Hence this choice.

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