SSG Where the rubber hits the road

[min2oly]

In terms of this wheel and 12 volts.

IMHO – the collapsing field of the power winding does not go into the trigger with this wheel.

In these 12 volt systems w/ a good battery or capdump, I believe although the radiant flows everywhere, we have opened a path for the conventional current to be corralled and allowed to flow through those charging diodes on to the battery or cap. This can change if we add undesirable impedance. Put a scope across the trigger and you can see why I think this is so. I do not see any interaction. The collapse is in a different direction than the base of the transistor needs to turn on. In order to go into a “controlled” solid state mode, we need to move the trigger from primary – to primary +.

OK Patrick so why does the ckt go into self-oscillation when you have too much resistance on the base, or impedance mismatch in the coils, etc...? I’m not even going to try to answer this one for risk of contradicting myself :-)

Guy is right, you can put a switching diode E/B (emitter to base) and the ckt will self-oscillate based on the diode specs and Single wire coil you are using. That’s right one wind – no trigger other than the switching diode.

The pendulum allowed us to change many things on the fly to experiment with. One thing we played around with was the magnet. The larger the magnet the more spikes you get independent from the speed and distance from the core. One job of the E/B diode is to turn the transistor off, however, it can only fend off the energy from the passing magnet for so long. That’s why I was not able to tune the wheel to 1 spike earlier. When I pulled the coil away from the wheel, the magnet was not allowed to influence the trigger long enough to prevent me from getting it down to 1 spike.

I think this is all very relevant to this thread as well as Bobs thread. I think this is where tuning falls apart and most lose hope with the wheel or maybe I’m just projecting here…

Ok more fussy tuning stuff. JB giving us the light bulb worked out for a couple of good reasons. It’s a great self-servo addition to the ckt for those w/ little primaries (sorry it’s true). We all know, however, there is more than one way to skin a cat... the bulb helps keep the ckt in tune as the primary voltage decreases during a run. He also knew many of us would not have a scope.

good morning all or good night?
Patrick A.

[min2oly]

8-tgb

Here we go...

Thanks for the wakeup call guys. I got so busy tuning I forgot how to tune!
This is just a quicky. I've completed a few more runs w/ different batteries as well as using an external force to slow the wheel.

Thanks for the help with this - do not hesitate to offer up any ideas.

Guy - I like your butler, can't wait to hear your results hunting down spiky.

on measuring:
What about placing an amp meter on the input then on the output, have a cap dump to another cap, place a load on that final cap w/ another meter in line? Just thinking as I type...
Have a great weekend all,
Patrick A.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Patrick, Bob, & Guy

IMHO – the collapsing field of the power winding does not go into the trigger with this wheel.

In these 12 volt systems w/ a good battery or capdump, I believe although the radiant flows everywhere, we have opened a path for the conventional current to be corralled and allowed to flow through those charging diodes on to the battery or cap. This can change if we add undesirable impedance. Put a scope across the trigger and you can see why I think this is so. I do not see any interaction. The collapse is in a different direction than the base of the transistor needs to turn on. In order to go into a “controlled” solid state mode, we need to move the trigger from primary – to primary +.
...........................

Patrick A.

I just hooked my "o" scope up to my rotored SSG with channel 1 hooked to the collector and channel 2 hooked to the trigger winding where it connects to the branch resistor. The signal ground is to the primary battery negative. The trigger trace is basically a mirror image of the transistor output (collector) trace. Both are in phase (but inverted), both are the same amplitude, and both show high voltage spikes at the moment of transistor turnoff. They are not exact mirror images, but they are pretty close! If one is giving two pulses per magnet pass both are doing it. And if only one pulse per magnet pass both traces show only one pulse.

However, without any batteries attached and just giving the wheel a spin by hand, the wave form across any of the coils is the same slightly distorted sine wave shape at the same small amplitude except inverted in the trigger winding. (one to one ratio).

My conclusion is that the power windings inductive collapses are very much going into the trigger windings just like Erfinder said. It looks to me like the entire wave form of the power windings is inductively coupled to the trigger winding. And I further think that the amount of core saturation at any given frequency determines the number of pulses per magnet pass.

P.S. I also seem to get slightly faster charging with two pulses/magnet when in conventional radiant mode as compared to one pulse/magnet. And of course running in charge mode gives a much quicker charge. (There is only one long pulse/magnet in charge mode.)

[min2oly]

Both are in phase (but inverted)

Hi Gary,
That's a good experiment, what goes on in my head doesn't always come out of my mouth or fingers :-)

So, of course they influence each other, however the coil discharge is in the wrong direction to influence the base of the transistor. so through the output diode it goes...

Now once we change impedances and do all kinds of high speed high voltage and mismatching of various things all bets are off.

Kind Regards,
Patrick

[guyzzemf]

So, of course they influence each other, however the coil discharge is in the wrong direction to influence the base of the transistor. so through the output diode it goes...

of course when coil magnet field collapse it inducts to the trigger as Bob and Gary showed and stated B Bob had the timing led on the trigger / not having a scope you have to note which way you hook up led on the trigger to know that its inverted or it should fire the transistor again

In order to go into a “controlled” solid state mode, we need to move the trigger from primary – to primary +.

PAT please say more about this or point me to a thread or video as i miss a couple years getting to know my local hospital
to do the test i want i need a o scope but what i want to see has been done by accident and trial and error
i just got to look
so the pendulum gave you multi spikes a hall powered trigger i need to set up or learn how you tune a hall trigger i go read
i going to guess that [better not guess]
guy

Originally Posted by Bobzilla on the http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ll=1#post11738
Where that turns out to be within each setting is actually to bring it to speed where it is transitioning from more spikes to less and then go about half way up from there to the next shift. So say it is seeing three spikes and I dial it up to two,, ok at that point if I back off half of the way between the two than that is just about right. Don’t know if that makes sense but it is just something that can be observed when standing in front of the machine and listening to what is going on.

I could run it at the bare minimum to keep in a particular spike range but I have found that the charging is much better if I give it that little bit extra. The return for adding a little draw seems to be much greater than trying to conserve it. If I had a scope to look at I assume that the spikes are gaining a lot of amplitude in that small tuning window.

this is how i tuned but i used a fix res i never did output charts with a time factor [well in did mentally
that is a good thread http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ll=1#post11738
I THINK people miss ,or i was not clear in the old yahoo group i sure it was me

[min2oly]

Hi Guy, I think your hall trigger experiment is different than anything I've heard of. I would like to see or hear about it.

I am only referring to taking the SSG into solid state mode, by taking the bottom of the trigger winding, removing it from the primary neg and placing it to the primary +.

I think what you are talking about using the hall is completely different. I was not using a hall w/ the pendulum. What we did was place many different sized and shaped magnets and cores to see what their interaction w/ the transistor would be. easy when you only have one magnet. Results, the bigger the magnet in relation to the core, the more spikes there are - or to say it another way, the longer the magnet was passing the core at the right speed of course, the more spikes.... plain and simple, more time to interact w/ the magnet.

Hope your weekend is going well,
Patrick A.

PS to all, and last time I'll bring it up... how do you GET to two spikes?

PAT please say more about this or point me to a thread or video as i miss a couple years getting to know my local hospital
to do the test i want i need a o scope but what i want to see has been done by accident and trial and error
i just got to look
so the pendulum gave you multi spikes a hall powered trigger i need to set up or learn how you tune a hall trigger i go read
i going to guess that [better not guess]
guy

[BobZilla]

PS to all, and last time I'll bring it up... how do you GET to two spikes?

Patrick I'm not sure what you are getting at? I know that you know how to tune so what exactly are you asking for here?

My basic procedure is to set my gap, I like a wide gap because all we really want the earth magnet to do is induce the trigger voltage so I like it far back a bit. Of course your gap also determines where your 1 spike, 2 spike etc.. will fall into place. Gap and resistance both affect it.

Once you have a ball park get the spikes where you want them. I do not have an o scope so I am more accustomed to looking at my timing light which shows both directions and I can just tell by looking at the width on the spokes. As was already mentioned I like the spot about half way between spike changes so I will tune to there and look at my draw. Depending on the primary I am using I will make sure that the primary can handle the draw at a C20 or greater. If it cannot then I will adjust the gap a bit in or out (most likely in) to reduce my draw.

I'm having a hard time explaining this actually because I just know what I'm looking for and adjust. Basically what I am saying is you can affect your draw and spike by moving the coil in or out.

So for two spikes I would ball park the gap, check the draw, if it is too much, adjust the gap and maybe a smidgen of adjustment on the pot. Put another way I can achieve 2 spikes right in the middle drawing say 700ma OR re adjust the gap and the POT and run in the same middle spike range at 1A or where ever I need to be.

Yea I am doing terrible job of explaining myself, Perhaps if I made a video I could make more sense instead of babbling. Bottom line is it all starts with the gap.

Speaking of Solid state, I just built a new one ;-) I am going to make a new post tomorrow about it so anyone interested keep your eye out for it. The new one is a two coil setup each has 4 18AWG power + trigger so 8 power winds in all.

[min2oly]

quick post... Removing more resistance:

Need more time to read/answer ?'s be back soon...
Kind Regards,
Patrick

[guyzzemf]

Bob i hear you loud and clear ; because iv been there
Pat that is just what i mean

I am only referring to taking the SSG into solid state mode, by taking the bottom of the trigger winding, removing it from the primary neg and placing it to the primary +.

iv read how to use hall ic not ready to do yet but i see why or why it can multi spike with a hall trigger
right now im just trying to figger [in my head] a way to fire transistor with no multi spike and get the full gain
staying in safe operating area of trane-soa i cross this river b4 it got deep then not so deep 2 me now
if this gets too far of topic i;ll start a new A CLEAN TRIGGER as some of threads end up there
with no transformer effect
tuneable spike/amp draw

[guyzzemf]

too late Pat but if you ever want to cover wheel with something super light and strong no glue all you need is the wifes iron use what we use to cover rc glider wings its great MONOKOTE ECONKOTE http://www.monokote.com/econokote.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMBnV7pitMI

[min2oly]

MONOKOTE ECONKOTE
that looks like it would work well w/ a heat gun, I Think I still need to cover the magnets. I still feel quite a bit of air being pushed around even w/ a slow 170rpm...

Bob and all,
Here is one way I like to get to two spikes:

Kind Regards,
Patrick A.

[BobZilla]

Hi Patrick,,

Ok now I see why you were asking it in the way that you were. When you said there are many ways to tune, well that says it all doesn't it ;-)

We spend a few days to a few weeks BUILDING,, and then months and years adjusting.

By the way my big machine did have an axle and I played around with mechanical resistances such as fans, pullies, grabbing at it like a monkey and scratching my head. You can get the effect that way too but I was not even thinking about it until I watched your video. I was so excited to build a fixed axle into that machine and it is kind of cool but honestly I think I got more precision from a genny coil, plus as you are doing you can use that 3rd voltage for interesting things. I don't think any future builds will have a fixed axle, was cool but just not as cool as I had thought it would be.

Great videos!

[min2oly]

Small discovery on my toyota true start (yes, I could not give up on it). It does not like to be charged much past 14.5V. When I say “does not like” what I mean is, it takes on a charge w/ less resistance, it charges faster at the lower range then it does at the top. I can spend an additional hour going from 14.5 to 15.3.
OK:

Fully charged to 15.5 then 2 hour rest 12.89
discharge for one hour then rest for one hour 12.75
using the same watts as discharge, it takes another 1.5 sometimes 2 hours to get back to the 15.5!


however if I repeat the same cycle starting at 12.75, discharge for an hour, rest, charge back using the same discharge watts for only one hour. After resting 2 hours the battery hovers at 12.79 no problem.


so, for this one hour experiment, the best results are in that range. I have to repeat quite a few more runs now to verify that the voltage readings are consistent and not leading me astray. Oh, This does not include the Geny Coil charging on the side... Perhaps I’ll work on a cap dump to load measuring device however.

I feel like we should all be able to come up w/ some very simple and serious method to measure the in and out, especially now that JB is using the cap dump method as a way to increase the output even further.
Kind Regards,
Battery Woes Patrick

[Tom C]

the top of the charge curve is always the hardest because its stuffing it into an almost full battery..... running in the middle of the charge curve is the best way to see good cop numbers. over time batteries wil charge easier up to higher voltages once the plates are really clean, and they have been cycled a bunch of times. it takes time for the plates to be really good. I just bought a brand new battery from napa for a pressure washer, it has a manufaturing date of less than 4 months on it. I opened it up and the top of the plates already had a light dusting of white on them..... nothing the 2a12 could not fix quickly.
Tom C

[min2oly]

Hi Tom,
not sure how I missed this info. over all these years...
This is very big for me, I always thought that was part of the conditioning the batteries had to go through before we could see OU.
It all makes sense. my big bank never gets to 15.5 let alone 14.5.
my small 3.6 and 7Ah's always charged to 16 but took a long time before I was able to see OU.
In JB's DVD's he charges to 90% !!!!!!!
should have been a big clue eh :-)
Maybe I'm the only one who did not know this and it just seemed like common sense to all.
Stay at it folks....
Kind Regards,
Patrick A.

Oh here are a couple of pics from one of my bathrooms. No flash was used and no compensation. looking at the pictures side by side w/ the real world, the light in the pictures is actually darker than the real world. This bath has no windows so all the light is coming from the leds.

the top of the charge curve is always the hardest because its stuffing it into an almost full battery..... running in the middle of the charge curve is the best way to see good cop numbers. over time batteries wil charge easier up to higher voltages once the plates are really clean, and they have been cycled a bunch of times. it takes time for the plates to be really good. I just bought a brand new battery from napa for a pressure washer, it has a manufaturing date of less than 4 months on it. I opened it up and the top of the plates already had a light dusting of white on them..... nothing the 2a12 could not fix quickly.
Tom C