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Charging 3 105 AH batteries with SSG

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  • #16
    Hi John and Aaron,

    Thanks for the feedback. What you are saying sounds about right. In the normal single battery supply my 7 strand SSG will charge a 13AH lawn battery to well over 16 volts. It does it very quickly in generator mode and a little slower in radiant mode. And it will push a 30AH car battery well over 15 volts in generator mode. It's definitely too small for the 100AH batteries I'm playing with now. I may add more coils to it at a later date. In the meantime, I'm just topping them off with my 10A12 charger to keep them in reasonably good condition.

    What I'm experimenting with is comparing normal charging to the "three battery supply" rotation in a "split the negative" arrangement with radiant spikes added to the battery under charge. It takes about an hour to pull them back up to 14 volts using this method, which I thought was pretty good for this size of batteries. It won't top them off, so after I've cycled them all a couple of times I finish charging each one individually to 15 volts on the 10A12.

    I think raising each battery to 24 volts would also make a big improvement, as well as switching to faster diodes to collect the radiant. Or I could invest in some 30 AH batteries and leave it the way it is for now. But first, I need to finish up a couple of other projects that are higher on my priority list.
    Gary Hammond,

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
      I find that a typical coil with 7-8 power windings will draw a ballpark of about 20 watts - so it would take a 5 coiler ideally for the 100 ah battery bank. Would you say that matches what you've seen?

      A single coil with 7 power windings for example can barely push a 35 amp hour battery into the 14 volt range.
      Yes Aaron, 20W is in the ball park for a 7-8 strand coil. So I'd expect it to charge a 20Ah battery well, probably no bigger than a 25Ah. As I said, it's a guide. There's a lot of variables - Mode 1, generator mode, 3 battery switch, rotored SG, SS SG, etc.

      You really need to push the battery to the top of the charge curve for effective de-sulfation.

      John K.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by John_Koorn View Post
        Yes Aaron, 20W is in the ball park for a 7-8 strand coil. So I'd expect it to charge a 20Ah battery well, probably no bigger than a 25Ah. As I said, it's a guide. There's a lot of variables - Mode 1, generator mode, 3 battery switch, rotored SG, SS SG, etc.

        You really need to push the battery to the top of the charge curve for effective de-sulfation.

        John K.
        Yes, you did mention 15.8 volts - that sounds a bit hot to me but maybe not.

        However, something like the CBA IV - Pro or non-Pro by West Mountain Radio: http://www.westmountainradio.com/pro...oducts_id=cba4

        Everyone experimenting with charging/discharging batteries should have one.

        When you see the charge graph ramp up then you see the dip showing the impedance dropped from the final layers of sulfation dissolving into solution, then you know you have reversed the chemistry on the battery. I think most lead acid batteries are in the low 15's and amg/gel is around 14.8 or so. 15.8 again sounds a little hot to me, but if anyone looks at the charts, the dip in the voltage at the end will tell you where that optimum topping voltage is for THAT particular battery and they will definitely vary a bit.

        That Computerized Battery Analyzer is not just good for monitoring charging curves, it has a constant current discharge mode so you can monitor what you actually got out of the battery.
        Aaron Murakami





        You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
          Yes, you did mention 15.8 volts - that sounds a bit hot to me but maybe not.

          However, something like the CBA IV - Pro or non-Pro by West Mountain Radio: http://www.westmountainradio.com/pro...oducts_id=cba4

          Everyone experimenting with charging/discharging batteries should have one.

          When you see the charge graph ramp up then you see the dip showing the impedance dropped from the final layers of sulfation dissolving into solution, then you know you have reversed the chemistry on the battery. I think most lead acid batteries are in the low 15's and amg/gel is around 14.8 or so. 15.8 again sounds a little hot to me, but if anyone looks at the charts, the dip in the voltage at the end will tell you where that optimum topping voltage is for THAT particular battery and they will definitely vary a bit.

          That Computerized Battery Analyzer is not just good for monitoring charging curves, it has a constant current discharge mode so you can monitor what you actually got out of the battery.
          Hi Aaron,
          Yes i guess we should first estimate what a battery gives out first(base quality) of the given Battery and the time it takes to charge it up to that 'Cold-boiling' regime(15.8V for true deep cycle, 14.5 for agm/SLA ect) and this you do by first Discharging a Standard mode charged battery and then from the next cycle on wards use the SG to start the cycle test. no given battery is even 80% of its factory rated Capacity in my guess. The battery servos to the given load over cycles and indeed shows improvement in COP as well! The CBAIV is a very important tool undoubtedly! However im a bit skeptical of using it for Charging monitoring purpose as you can have an accidental opening of the SG out put that can definitely kill the CBAIV.
          Rgds,
          Faraday88.
          Last edited by Faraday88; 12-18-2018, 12:43 AM.
          'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
            Hi Aaron,
            Yes i guess we should first estimate what a battery gives out first(base quality) of the given Battery and the time it takes to charge it up to that 'Cold-boiling' regime(15.8V for true deep cycle, 14.5 for agm/SLA ect) and this you do by first Discharging a Standard mode charged battery and then from the next cycle on wards use the SG to start the cycle test. no given battery is even 80% of its factory rated Capacity in my guess. The battery servos to the given load over cycles and indeed shows improvement in COP as well! The CBAIV is a very important tool undoubtedly! However im a bit skeptical of using it for Charging monitoring purpose as you can have an accidental opening of the SG out put that can definitely kill the CBAIV.
            Rgds,
            Faraday88.
            I think the 15.8v comes from the Battery Bible. The chart that shows the topping voltage dip is based on a hair over 2.6 volts per cell. At Bedini's around 2004 or so when Peter worked there for a year, they did a lot of non-stop charging/discharging tests and found that the low 15's is where that topping voltage dip happens on the charging graph - I don't think they ever needed to go above 15.3 volts.

            What I found with new deep cycles is that I get very close to 100% of the manufacturer's rating based on a 20 hour discharge. When I put a 2A12 on the battery then discharge after a full charge when it is new, I have gotten 110% of the manufacturer's rating. That was with 1 single charge cycle after discharging it.

            How will an "opening" of the SG damage the CBA IV? If the CBA IV is clamped to the battery getting charged, disconnecting the output of the SG may hurt the transistors if the neon bulbs don't protect them but nothing will happen to the CBA IV. At least, I don't see how it will be damaged.
            Aaron Murakami





            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
              I think the 15.8v comes from the Battery Bible. The chart that shows the topping voltage dip is based on a hair over 2.6 volts per cell. At Bedini's around 2004 or so when Peter worked there for a year, they did a lot of non-stop charging/discharging tests and found that the low 15's is where that topping voltage dip happens on the charging graph - I don't think they ever needed to go above 15.3 volts.

              What I found with new deep cycles is that I get very close to 100% of the manufacturer's rating based on a 20 hour discharge. When I put a 2A12 on the battery then discharge after a full charge when it is new, I have gotten 110% of the manufacturer's rating. That was with 1 single charge cycle after discharging it.

              How will an "opening" of the SG damage the CBA IV? If the CBA IV is clamped to the battery getting charged, disconnecting the output of the SG may hurt the transistors if the neon bulbs don't protect them but nothing will happen to the CBA IV. At least, I don't see how it will be damaged.
              Hi Aaron,

              Yes, 15.8v comes from the Battery Bible. In reality I don't think I've ever seen a deep cycle flooded lead acid top out at that voltage. Low 15's is what I generally see too. Sorry if I implied that 15.8v was mandatory.

              I have a 100Ah deep cycle that I'm rejuvenating (Century N70T) that I picked up at the local dump. After the first charge I only got 6Ah out of it on a 1A discharge and when charging it would top out at around 13.5v. After 27 cycles I'm up to 67Ah on a 3.3A discharge. It tops out at around 14.6v but each cycle gets just a little bit higher.

              I'm still using my CBA II after all these years. It's the most used tool I own. That dip in voltage when charging is critical, especially for rejuvenating batteries. It's also a great indicator that your charger is capable of fully charging the battery.

              John K.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                I think the 15.8v comes from the Battery Bible. The chart that shows the topping voltage dip is based on a hair over 2.6 volts per cell. At Bedini's around 2004 or so when Peter worked there for a year, they did a lot of non-stop charging/discharging tests and found that the low 15's is where that topping voltage dip happens on the charging graph - I don't think they ever needed to go above 15.3 volts.

                What I found with new deep cycles is that I get very close to 100% of the manufacturer's rating based on a 20 hour discharge. When I put a 2A12 on the battery then discharge after a full charge when it is new, I have gotten 110% of the manufacturer's rating. That was with 1 single charge cycle after discharging it.

                How will an "opening" of the SG damage the CBA IV? If the CBA IV is clamped to the battery getting charged, disconnecting the output of the SG may hurt the transistors if the neon bulbs don't protect them but nothing will happen to the CBA IV. At least, I don't see how it will be damaged.
                Hi Aaron,
                Thanks for that little briefings.In fact I too saw this happening.Generally we consider 80% of the manufacturer's rating but with several cycles im getting it close to the this rating and eventually may stabilize like what you said. (>100%).
                About the CBA VI the radiant can kill the FET inside it depending on the state of the battery connected across it. (you never know if you are connecting an Open cell battery across it in which case the Radiant is right across the connected CBA IV).
                Rgds,
                Faraday88.
                'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
                  Hi Aaron,
                  Thanks for that little briefings.In fact I too saw this happening.Generally we consider 80% of the manufacturer's rating but with several cycles im getting it close to the this rating and eventually may stabilize like what you said. (>100%).
                  About the CBA VI the radiant can kill the FET inside it depending on the state of the battery connected across it. (you never know if you are connecting an Open cell battery across it in which case the Radiant is right across the connected CBA IV).
                  Rgds,
                  Faraday88.
                  Ok, I get what you're saying. I've never seen that happen.

                  When the CBA-IV is connected to a battery, the battery is such a low impedance path for the radiant that the battery just sucks it up like a sponge and it doesn't make it to the cba or other meter - from what I've experienced.

                  This is the same reason that a 2A12 cap dump or even a spike charger on a car battery that is still hooked up to the cables on a car will not damage the car computer and other electronics. The battery sucks it up and it will never make it elsewhere. I won't guarantee that so if anyone fries their care computer, etc. it's their own responsibility - I'm just saying I've never seen those problems.
                  Aaron Murakami





                  You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                    Ok, I get what you're saying. I've never seen that happen.

                    When the CBA-IV is connected to a battery, the battery is such a low impedance path for the radiant that the battery just sucks it up like a sponge and it doesn't make it to the cba or other meter - from what I've experienced.

                    This is the same reason that a 2A12 cap dump or even a spike charger on a car battery that is still hooked up to the cables on a car will not damage the car computer and other electronics. The battery sucks it up and it will never make it elsewhere. I won't guarantee that so if anyone fries their care computer, etc. it's their own responsibility - I'm just saying I've never seen those problems.
                    Sure you are correct..just that Murrphy's law lurks every where lol!!
                    Rgds,
                    Faraday88.
                    'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by John_Koorn View Post
                      Hi Aaron,

                      Yes, 15.8v comes from the Battery Bible. In reality I don't think I've ever seen a deep cycle flooded lead acid top out at that voltage. Low 15's is what I generally see too. Sorry if I implied that 15.8v was mandatory.

                      I have a 100Ah deep cycle that I'm rejuvenating (Century N70T) that I picked up at the local dump. After the first charge I only got 6Ah out of it on a 1A discharge and when charging it would top out at around 13.5v. After 27 cycles I'm up to 67Ah on a 3.3A discharge. It tops out at around 14.6v but each cycle gets just a little bit higher.

                      I'm still using my CBA II after all these years. It's the most used tool I own. That dip in voltage when charging is critical, especially for rejuvenating batteries. It's also a great indicator that your charger is capable of fully charging the battery.

                      John K.
                      John/Aaron,

                      Just wondering, Should not an increase in Capacity (by SG) every cycle also increase the time taken to charge the same battery when the same charge rate current is used?(Primary ) or does it work counter intuitive fashion?
                      Rgds,
                      Faraday88.
                      'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
                        John/Aaron,

                        Just wondering, Should not an increase in Capacity (by SG) every cycle also increase the time taken to charge the same battery when the same charge rate current is used?(Primary ) or does it work counter intuitive fashion?
                        Rgds,
                        Faraday88.
                        Hi Faraday,

                        I've only seen the charge time decrease on perfectly good battery that is repeatedly putting out it's maximum capacity (i.e fully rejuvenated). Bedini always said that once the battery gets used to being radiantly charged the time to charge it does decrease.

                        John K.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by John_Koorn View Post
                          Hi Faraday,

                          I've only seen the charge time decrease on perfectly good battery that is repeatedly putting out it's maximum capacity (i.e fully rejuvenated). Bedini always said that once the battery gets used to being radiantly charged the time to charge it does decrease.

                          John K.
                          Thanks JK! How fast and safey can we Radiantly charge the Battery? suppose its a100Ah battery (deep cycle flodded) consideringa de-rating factor and effective capacity of 96Ah and say a rate of C5 charging and discharge rate of 5hr (19.2A Load current). is that the maximum one can go?
                          Also, I have seen an interesting behavior with the SG charged battery.. A fully charged Battery when subjected to the load dips down in the terminal Voltage very fast up to a point and then starts to rise up from there and kind of oscillate in this fashion. Now, is'nt that a characteristic to the Radiant Kind of Charging?
                          Rgds,
                          Faraday88.
                          Last edited by Faraday88; 12-19-2018, 10:06 PM.
                          'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by John_Koorn View Post
                            Hi Faraday,

                            I've only seen the charge time decrease on perfectly good battery that is repeatedly putting out it's maximum capacity (i.e fully rejuvenated). Bedini always said that once the battery gets used to being radiantly charged the time to charge it does decrease.

                            John K.
                            Hi JK,
                            My set up is already showing up increased Capacity (just 2 cycles of Charge -discharge)and decrease in Charge up time! i think it will get better and better until a platue of saturation is reached. My charging section is not yet at the planned 19.2A rate though.Currently im charging the bank(ofcourse SSG) at 5 A rate and its charging quicker than the previous cycle!
                            Im little worried about the Bank temperature when i go for the 19.2A rate.I anticipate there will be thermal runaway at the Cold-boiling regime accompanied with it. your inputs appreciated please..
                            Rgds,
                            Faraday88.
                            Last edited by Faraday88; 12-20-2018, 02:42 AM.
                            'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
                              Thanks JK! How fast and safey can we Radiantly charge the Battery? suppose its a100Ah battery (deep cycle flodded) consideringa de-rating factor and effective capacity of 96Ah and say a rate of C5 charging and discharge rate of 5hr (19.2A Load current). is that the maximum one can go?
                              Also, I have seen an interesting behavior with the SG charged battery.. A fully charged Battery when subjected to the load dips down in the terminal Voltage very fast up to a point and then starts to rise up from there and kind of oscillate in this fashion. Now, is'nt that a characteristic to the Radiant Kind of Charging?
                              Rgds,
                              Faraday88.
                              I'd always suggest the C20 charge/discharge rate if you can. You can get away with pushing it harder every now and then but for a deep cycle I'd never push it harder than C10.

                              Remember that heat is your enemy. Heat = wasted energy and shorter lifetime. Keep it cool, keep it forever

                              As for your "interesting behaviour", I've seen that too. I have no idea if it's a by-product of radiant charging. I've usually put it down to loading the battery too hard at the start.

                              John K.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
                                Hi JK,
                                My set up is already showing up increased Capacity (just 2 cycles of Charge -discharge)and decrease in Charge up time! i think it will get better and better until a platue of saturation is reached. My charging section is not yet at the planned 19.2A rate though.Currently im charging the bank(ofcourse SSG) at 5 A rate and its charging quicker than the previous cycle!
                                Im little worried about the Bank temperature when i go for the 19.2A rate.I anticipate there will be thermal runaway at the Cold-boiling regime accompanied with it. your inputs appreciated please..
                                Rgds,
                                Faraday88.
                                Faraday,

                                Same as last post - I think you will kill that battery at a C5 rate. Stick to C20 and you can't go wrong. If you haven't read Peter's "Battery Secrets" yet, I thoroughly recommend it.

                                Let nature run it's course...

                                John K.

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