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  • Bedini Ferris Wheel

    I have been working with my ferris wheel for a while and have had a strange phenomona happen.
    I am running at 24 volts with this machine. But what I had happen is that the input battery on the positive lead keeps having problems. I finally put my best battery on it and after a week or so of running it bulged out slightly on the ends and will no longer take a charge. If I were to guess, I would say that for some reason I am not getting all the energy to the charge batteries and some is coming back to the input. I am just guessing but in order to cause the problems it is causing this must be happening at point where it is powering the load and getting hit.

    Theory one is that perhaps it is in the timing rotor, Maybe I have my mags to far apart still.
    Theory two is that I may be dumping the cap at the same time as it fires somehow...
    Theory Three eight poles are bad! Go back to 16.....

    Thanks for any thoughts
    Les

  • #2
    Hi Les,

    Some questions:
    1. When you say the primary won't take a charge, do you mean with a conventional charger?
    2. What type of charger are you using to re-charge the primary?
    3. Is the primary running down to where it won't run the machine, or are you deciding to re-charge it based on it's voltage?
    4. Is the secondary charging as you'd expect?

    If in fact the radiant is getting back to the primary instead of the secondary (or both) it could be that the primary has been conditioned to the radiant charge. John Bedini has said in the past that once this occurs the battery will take a long time to charge conventionally. One method he showed on one of the EFTV DVDs was to discharge it to 0v with a car headlight and then try and recharge it conventionally.


    John K.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by John_Koorn View Post
      Hi Les,

      Some questions:
      1. When you say the primary won't take a charge, do you mean with a conventional charger?
      2. What type of charger are you using to re-charge the primary?
      3. Is the primary running down to where it won't run the machine, or are you deciding to re-charge it based on it's voltage?
      4. Is the secondary charging as you'd expect?

      If in fact the radiant is getting back to the primary instead of the secondary (or both) it could be that the primary has been conditioned to the radiant charge. John Bedini has said in the past that once this occurs the battery will take a long time to charge conventionally. One method he showed on one of the EFTV DVDs was to discharge it to 0v with a car headlight and then try and recharge it conventionally.


      John K.
      1. Yes, I have a 6 amp unit.
      2. standard charger.
      3. recharging when the voltage gets down to 11.3v
      4 yes, but not in excess of the input. No OU in this machine.

      I am going through the pulser as you recall. So The good battery I put on there was the better from the back side. I was looking to get both batteries to match in charging voltage(input and output). and the pair I have are very close. Well, at first. These are all AGM batteries. rated at 25amps 160 minute. I have some 850cca batteries brand new, I have never used, I was going to put on the back side. And I have a Tesla solar tracker III 20amp coming I was going to use to keep the front batteries charged off my solar panel. But if I have some kind of energy feedback the last thing I want to do is ruin the tracker.

      Les

      Comment


      • #4
        Keeping Batteries topped

        Originally posted by LesK View Post
        1. Yes, I have a 6 amp unit.
        2. standard charger.
        3. recharging when the voltage gets down to 11.3v
        4 yes, but not in excess of the input. No OU in this machine.

        I am going through the pulser as you recall. So The good battery I put on there was the better from the back side. I was looking to get both batteries to match in charging voltage(input and output). and the pair I have are very close. Well, at first. These are all AGM batteries. rated at 25amps 160 minute. I have some 850cca batteries brand new, I have never used, I was going to put on the back side. And I have a Tesla solar tracker III 20amp coming I was going to use to keep the front batteries charged off my solar panel. But if I have some kind of energy feedback the last thing I want to do is ruin the tracker.

        Les
        G'Day Les
        I have found in the past that IF you do not cycle the batteries i.e. charge and discharge them they will not do well.
        If not kept charged or charge too slow they will sulfate and this is sometimes noted by the swelling of the plates causing the battery to enlarge at the sides
        If they are continually charged and not discharged they somehow seem to harden the plates and therefore cannot take a propper charge

        Ihave several batteries now that were rejuvenated would hold at 13v and take a long time to discharge and short time to charge
        But having too many batteries to look after I just destroyed them by continually only topping them up with a Spanker

        Kindest regards
        [IMG][/IMG]
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Ian,
          I know what you say is correct. But this is different. This is a situation that occured in a matter of days. While being cycled.
          Also it is odd that I have two batteries in series, and had problems with two different batteries on the positive input side. The battery connected to the neg side has never had a problem.
          The battery on there now bulged within a mater of three or four cycles. It was charged previously with the cap dump circuit otherwise I would think this was a conflict of energies in the battery.
          I have seen and documented that plenty of times. These energies do not mix. but with the cap dump circuit the only real difference should be the pulsing vs non pulsing DC charge.

          Les

          Comment


          • #6
            so les to be clear. good batteries on the primary side, within a few cycles they are bulging? are they are growing sulphates very fast on the plates, or is it a gassing problem as they are AGM batts? if they are agm. check the vents, otherwise pop the tops and look inside.
            Tom C


            experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tom C View Post
              so les to be clear. good batteries on the primary side, within a few cycles they are bulging? are they are growing sulphates very fast on the plates, or is it a gassing problem as they are AGM batts? if they are agm. check the vents, otherwise pop the tops and look inside.
              Tom C
              Hi Tom,
              AGM's, only the positive side has trouble(two 12 volts batts to get 24volts), and I had popped the tops before using them. So the bulging is not pressure.
              I ran the machine tonight for about 3 hrs. it dropped to 10.3 volts. and sure enough some of the bulging went away(wierd or eery not sure which). I will try charging again with a standard charger.

              Let me describe the process again and make sure I have not left anything out.
              I was running the machine on these batteries for some months now. I would run the machine for about a day and a half. Then charge the front batteries with a regular charger. one at a time as it is only a 12 volt unit.
              What I noticed was that after a while the battery on the positive side would discharge faster than it's partner on the negative side. I wanted batteries that would be more even for longer run times.
              When discharging the batteries on the back side one of the batteries held longer under discharge than the other. So I moved it to the front positive lead side and moved the other to the back for charging.
              This worked wonderful for about a week. Then there was a sudden change. and over about three cycles the battery started discharging very very fast. I could only run the machine for about three hours.
              That's when I noticed the bulging as well.
              I will go back over the timing and make sure nothing has shifted. Oh, and the battery I put on the back side is now very strong. Equal to the other. so big improvement on that score.

              At this point I am probably going to shelve this one for a while and think about it. While I continue on my six coil build.

              Thanks
              Les

              Comment


              • #8
                Patrick is getting closer with his Ferris Wheel :-)

                With my new found info on the switch and coils, I went back to play around with some different things.
                I almost always hold the coils as part of the tuning with all our builds. I noticed the coil seemed cold. Here is a vid on the temp of the coil vs wood frame vs battery and transistors:
                Bedini Ferris Wheel replication
                The battery and coil are cold. the transistors are still warmer than room temp. I must be getting closer...? Oh, it kind of went solid state on me...
                Keep'n at it,
                Patrick

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LesK View Post
                  Hi Tom,
                  AGM's, only the positive side has trouble(two 12 volts batts to get 24volts), and I had popped the tops before using them. So the bulging is not pressure.
                  I ran the machine tonight for about 3 hrs. it dropped to 10.3 volts. and sure enough some of the bulging went away(wierd or eery not sure which). I will try charging again with a standard charger.

                  Let me describe the process again and make sure I have not left anything out.
                  I was running the machine on these batteries for some months now. I would run the machine for about a day and a half. Then charge the front batteries with a regular charger. one at a time as it is only a 12 volt unit.
                  What I noticed was that after a while the battery on the positive side would discharge faster than it's partner on the negative side. I wanted batteries that would be more even for longer run times.
                  When discharging the batteries on the back side one of the batteries held longer under discharge than the other. So I moved it to the front positive lead side and moved the other to the back for charging.
                  This worked wonderful for about a week. Then there was a sudden change. and over about three cycles the battery started discharging very very fast. I could only run the machine for about three hours.
                  That's when I noticed the bulging as well.
                  I will go back over the timing and make sure nothing has shifted. Oh, and the battery I put on the back side is now very strong. Equal to the other. so big improvement on that score.

                  At this point I am probably going to shelve this one for a while and think about it. While I continue on my six coil build.

                  Thanks
                  Les
                  so something I have discovered in my trials and tribulations with series batteries... in a string of 4 t 125's set up series for 24 volts. in my set up it is ALWAYS the third battery in the series, always the center cell of that battery that dies first, ALWAYS...... I am using 16 sets of these batteries in this configuration. they are cycled daily, and fully charged each night and watered daily with distilled water. the only way to change this is to move the batteries in their location in the charging string. this was not true with my 20 amp chargers, but these 30 amp chargers ge the job done faster, but it is destroying the batts faster.

                  I now have pulsetech desulphators on all my chargers , PP-24-L PowerPulse 24-Volt Battery Maintenance System
                  Rick would not build them for me so I had to go somewhere else. its a shame cause I know JB could have designed one in about 5 minutes!

                  Tom C


                  experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To All,
                    The AGM batteries may be converted, but what if the battery is Sulfated, your in trouble.
                    The only way I ever found to help the battery is make sure the battery voltage is zero. To do this you must use a supply you can dial in for current. The first thing is to test the battery to make sure it is at zero volts. By reversing the charge you can move the lead in the reverse direction, and you only want to do this for a very short time as the battery may heat and you want to keep this at a minimum, say 10 minutes. Then drain the battery to zero and charge again with a variable supply for current in the correct direction. Now we are talking about AGM cells here and not anything else. Be very careful when doing this, as this is done at your own risk.

                    You should be able to recover at least 55% of those useless batteries. This type of battery dries out and you cant do a thing with it. You can get it to work as we have done this at the shop. Make sure you drill a small hole in the caps that you pop off for the gases to escape.

                    A Sulfated Battery

                    How many times have you heard the expression, "The Battery Won't Take A Charge" or "The Battery Won't Hold A Charge?" More often than not, the culprit is hardened sulfate on the battery plates. Below we will attempt to explain what that means, what the causes are, and some measures to prevent the sulfate from permanently damaging your battery.

                    Let's look inside a battery cell. Basically, there are the positive plates, the negative plates, separators (to keep the plates apart), and electrolyte (sulfuric acid and water).

                    In normal use, battery plates are getting sulfated all the time. When a battery is being discharged the lead active material on the plates will react with the sulfate from the electrolyte forming a lead sulfate on the plates. When there is no lead active material and or sulfate from the electrolyte remaining the battery then is completely discharged. After a battery reaches this state, it must be recharged. During recharge, the lead sulfate is reconverted into lead active material and the sulfate returned to the electrolyte.

                    When the sulfate is removed from the electrolyte the specific gravity is reduced and the reverse takes place when the sulfate is returned to the electrolyte. This is why the state of charge can be determined with the use of a hydrometer.

                    If a battery is left standing in a discharged condition the lead sulfate will become hard and have a high electrical resistance. This is what is normally called a sulfated battery. The lead sulfate may become so hard that normal recharging will not break it down. Most charging sources, engine alternators and battery chargers, are voltage regulated. Their charging current is controlled by the battery's state of charge. During charging, battery voltage rises until it meets the charger's regulated voltage, lowering the current output along the way.

                    When hard sulfate is present, the battery shows a false voltage, higher than it's true voltage, fooling the voltage regulator into thinking that the battery is fully charged. This causes the charger to prematurely lower it's current output, leaving the battery discharged. Charging at a higher than normal voltage and low current may be necessary to break down the hardened sulfate.

                    Hardened sulfate also forms in a battery that is constantly being cycled in the middle of its capacity range (somewhere between 80% charged and 80% discharged), and is never recharged to 100%. Over time, a portion of the plate's active materials turns into hard sulfate. If the battery is continually cycled in this manner, it will lose more and more of its capacity until it no longer has enough capacity to perform the task for which it was intended. An equalizing charge, applied routinely every three to four weeks, should prevent the sulfate from hardening.

                    In both cases, the fact that the battery "won't take a charge" is a result of improper charging procedures which allowed the sulfate to harden. In most instances, it is possible to salvage a battery with hardened sulfate. The battery should be charged from an outside source at 2.6 to 2.7 - volts per cell and a low

                    current rate (approximately 5 Amps for small batteries and 10-Amps for larger ones) until the specific gravity of the electrolyte starts to rise. (This indicates that the sulfate is breaking down.) Be careful not to let the internal temperature of the battery rise above 125 F. If it does, turn the charger off and let the battery cool. Then, continue charging until each cell in the battery is brought up to full charge (nominal 1.265 specific gravity or higher).This time needed to complete this recharge depends on how long the battery has been discharged and how hard the sulfate has become.

                    The next time your batteries don't seem to be taking or holding a charge, check the specific gravity with a hydrometer. If all cells are low even after a long time on charge, chances are you've got some hardened sulfate that has accumulated on the plates. By following the instructions outlined above, the problem may be corrected.
                    John Bedini
                    My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Converted AGM Battery

                      In this video I show a converted AGM battery that is now converted to a flooded lead acid battery. This battery was not useable until now. The process was talked about on the Energyscience forum This Forum is my home and it deals with everything I have done in the energy field, I will not be posting on any other forums. I hope to have others join in with other technologies.


                      John Bedini
                      John Bedini
                      My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Back with a few Ideas

                        I hope this picture is clear enough.
                        I have been able to play a little bit with the Ferris Wheel And made some improvements on my cap dump circuit. I think it works a little better. But I have noticed that it has a hard time dropping the cap all the way down to within a few volts of the batteries like my other circuit. It only drops to about 34 volts(this is a 24 volt machine). The IRFP260's run quite warm. I reduced the resistance on the H11D1 LED from 10k to 8.2k and that seemed to help some. This comparator is only rated for + or 10ma so I can't go much further. I also increased the cap size on the voltage divider to 1.2 uf. That seemed to help a bit as well. I was using an MPSA06 on the H11D1 and now have the BD243C and I wonder if that is part of the problem I think the MPS takes a lot less to switch and makes a good fuse to protect the Fets.

                        As you can see in the Schematic (hopefully) I have made use of the second comparator. This is an SSG control switch. In my case I am using a Tesla tracker 20amp with a 120 watt solar panel. I have a small inverter connected that runs a very inefficient transformer to 36volts on the input of the Ferris Wheel. Connected to the charge batteries (currently using some AGM ALPHA 25 amp at 1.8hr rate) is an SSG. It is the one I call Bluebell. Five strand, super pole. That charges a bank of four motorcycle batteries 50-N18L Everstart. 20AH at the 10hr rate.

                        I am thinking of changing out the AGM's and putting in some Car batteries because of how I am running them. The circuit is designed so that the SSG is off while the cap dumps. Then is turned back on until the next dump. Something like might be seen on the Watson machine except not fed back to the input. I am planning on building a switching mechanism for two banks of the motorcycle batteries so that while one is charging the other bank is running another inverter to my large 880AH batteries that run my shop.

                        Currently I am testing the SSG to see what it's performance is. So far the batteries under charge have increased in two cycles from 130wh to 230wh already.

                        At this point I have tested the SSG switching mechanism (The H11D1 And IRF260) but have not connected the comparator yet. So I am working in stages of running the Ferris wheel until the batteries are charged then running the SSG until those batteries are charged and then loading them with the inverter and 60watt light, together about 64watts (which ran for 3 hrs 37 minutes on my last test down to 11.51 volts, resting at the start was 12.58v).

                        I have almost everything done to start on my Six coil unit. I am waiting on one last thing and if that comes in then I will get that done so I can replace bluebell with it. Also I designed the six coil unit frame and parts in Cad so if I can post a DXF here I will get that done as soon as I know it all came out without to many errors. Hope that will help others who may be interested.

                        Les
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Curious

                          Hi John B.

                          In EFTV 23 (1:07:40 - 1:08:07) you state:

                          "This was my original motor, but see Jim Watson discovered the "arrangement" a little bit different; and how you can tell that he discovered the "arrangement" a little bit different, is see, these aren't in line with the magnets, their advancing so he's creating that non linear field......"

                          I have reviewed this more times than I care to mention since the 2010 conference. The problem I had was that from the video it was "implied" that your new device was an improvement on, and superior to the Watson device. For the life of me I could not see the parallel, as you don't make it easy to see the "arrangement" in the Self Reguaging Idling Magneto. It would seem that there are parallels in everything you have presented....as an example, the master coil in the SG portion of the Ferris Wheel has a shaped field....I find myself asking the question of where else are you applying this "field shaping" principle in the machine?....With this in mind one returns to the "Self Reguaging Idling Magneto", and takes notice of the wedge shaped magnets.....and wonders if the fields of these magnets have been manipulated by "cutting the corners"....

                          Can you discuss the old "arrangement" in the Watson machine, and the advanced version that you are utilizing in the Self Reguaging Idling Magneto, how latter is superior to the former? Don't know why, but I feel like Mr. Howard Johnson is in there somewhere...

                          Patiently awaiting your reply....

                          Happy Holidays

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello John B,

                            I no longer require a reply....in the videos you have made available you made it clear what the arrangement used by Watson was. I am satisfied that I have found it (or similar pattern), and am now of the opinion that others in these circles have as well; (Adams, Muller). I have found that when the pattern is properly understood, and the coils are properly configured with relation to the magnets, an all north out rotor is better suited for generator applications than an alternating pole configuration, the reason is obvious to all those skilled in the art...(always wanted to use that line....) This in a way, in my opinion anyway, validates your original free energy generator design. It also demonstrates that there is more to the SG than meets the eye, especially in light of the aforementioned.

                            Thank you for all that you have done and are doing!


                            Regards

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Beginning of Rant

                              Hello John Bedini,

                              10 coils...10 rotor magnets...Hall commutated...5 times per revolution...firing on North poles only, that gives us 72 degrees of off time between pulses....actual off time determined by factors which are obvious to those skilled in the art... (I am not claiming to be one of those skilled individuals....)

                              The method by which the coils are connected is in a word....genius....I realize after much searching that this methodology didn't begin with you, but you have applied it brilliantly!

                              A test rig was built to verify some of your implied but not stated claims, I have two 6 filar, 370 turn coils. The two coils and their respective windings are all connected so that the measured inductance between the two coils equals 486mH. (It must be stated here that this is not the proper way to connect these coils but it allowed me to get the results that I was looking for in this particular test.)

                              In EFTV 23 you mention that the coils in your "Self Reguaging Idling Magneto" are wound with 2206 turns. In my rig one of my coils has 6x 370 turns in series, or 2220 turns in total...puts me a tad over what was mentioned in the video. With two of these coils in series I measure the aforementioned 486mH, this leads me to believe that you have around that much in one of your coils.....multiply that out by the number of coils you have in your machine (10x), you end up with 5H+/-.

                              At the start of this rant I mentioned the 72 degrees of off time... in EFTV 23 you were asked by Pat: (I think that's her name...please forgive me if it isn't...)
                              "What is this in the middle?" you reply saying "That is a self Reguaging idling magneto, which means, if it goes above the speed its rotating at right now, it generates to put power back to help recharge."
                              (Recharge what? The primary?!?!?!!! Is it possible that this is the mysterious back popper! A function that Rick tried to put in the SG using an external gen coil...Mind you the SG is also charging the primary back between cycles, but no were near to the degree that your Ferris Wheel design is.....I have witnessed that this (Ferris Wheel Magneto) configuration charges the supply back to a higher voltage than you started with, no extra circuitry required!

                              You stated "if it goes above the speed its rotating at....." You know it doesn't have to go past that speed...! Your 5H coil configuration is already allowing you to generate a higher potential than your input battery is supplying at the speed that its running at! You also know like I do that this generated potential can't be measured nor detected in any way while the circuit is operating in motor mode!!! It manifests and dominates when you stop treating the device as a prime mover, while its coasting towards the next triggering time. This for me is that time charge, for here the circuit stores the generated EMF while your switching circuit is active, and discharges this EMF within the 72 degrees of off time into the primary battery!!! (completely independent of what's happening on the opposite side of the circuit, you are still able to charge as many batteries as you like with the collapsing field. The generator function has no effect on "recovery" that I have been able to detect....)The off time is critical, if you don't have enough, the circuit will not discharge the entire previously stored EMF. The proof of this can be seen in a video I shot in 2012. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgQ_8pvDdMQNever mind the comments at the end of the video.....accept it or ignore it...I know now that you provided us with all we need from the very beginning! Thanks one step closer to true energy independence.

                              End of rant...

                              Ren,

                              If you are reading this....dust off that beast of a window motor!!! After you clear the cobwebs off it...call me!

                              Regards
                              Last edited by erfinder; 06-25-2013, 02:10 AM.

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