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Zero Force Motor Replication Project

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  • IMG_20161207_235759_786.jpg
    12/08/2016 With some encouragement I decided to add this version which seems to be closer to Peter's replication. The coils take up two 90 degree sections of 360 degrees. The rotor here is 2.25" inches radius. The magnet sizes, shaft, bearing, and bolts are the same as version one. This print will be more difficult. You will need to use support on the coil piece.

    You can use my plastic rotor file supplied or you can fabricate your own metal rotor like Dave mentioned above. The maximum diameter of the rotor should be no more than 2.25" with this one. This design also offers horizontal stackability. I posted to the same Thingiverse page. There are five files with this V2. You will have to print two bearing holders (one for each side). If you need a source to print anything I would recommend contacting Teslagenex. The size of this motor is slightly larger than the first motor. It is roughly about 4.5" square.

    If anyone sees any issues or has suggestions please comment.
    http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1940207

    Thanks
    DMann
    Last edited by DMANN; 12-08-2016, 12:02 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DMANN View Post
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]5663[/ATTACH]

      If anyone sees any issues or has suggestions please comment.
      http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1940207

      Thanks
      DMann
      DMann,

      Thanks for doing this. In looking at the conference machine, the magnets have a length equal to half the core length. I'm looking forward to Dr. Lindemann's paper on all this, but given Peter and John I doubt it was just happenstance that these were the dimensions they demonstrated. I go back and forth with thinking I understand this machine well or not at all. I could mumble stuff for a page or two but basically I think whatever is happening to the outgoing magnet is exactly cancelled by the incoming magnet, this will happen if the magnets aren't correctly spaced but it would "hitch" between the two. Also, if we think of the lines of force as a rope that we are grabbing to pull on than the more the magnetic field is distributed the more hands on the rope. I think this may be part of the reason for the ferromagnetic center. So, my guess, while it will still run fine, is that your magnets are too narrow for that wide of cores.

      Got new magnets yesterday or day before and will start building soon, need to run to the skate shop in the mall for skateboard bearings, whew, yea rebels, hey great nose ring. I ran the Mk II with the NS facing tangentially not radially, I don't think that is what was done on the conference machine but it worked well and the concepts seem close maybe the same. If as I hope and suspect I get further improvement with the stronger magnets for the Mk III I'll tear down the M II and rebuild it with the magnets radially to see what I get.
      Last edited by ZPDM; 12-08-2016, 12:42 AM.

      Comment


      • The rotor is an easy adjustment in cad. Its probably going to be best for one to fab there own rotor with the metal backing like Dave suggested though. There is plenty of space to fit most any size magnet though. Nevertheless I will add a rotor with any size magnet. The rotor I have listeted uses a 1/2" diameter. I will add rotors with 3/4" and 1" slots. If anyone wants metric stuff pm me and I will see what I can do. My cad program is set up for imperial and I generally have to change my parts to metric before I convert to stl.

        DMann

        Comment


        • Hello DMANN and Dave B.,

          Welcome to this thread - I was becoming a bit concerned that there were few out there interested in the ZFM - glad to have you both here showing your designs and thoughts. Excellent!

          DMANN - interesting to see the progression of your 3D design and how it comes together. The coils in the ZFM demo unit are elliptical or egg shaped and wound around the plastic 4 inch pipe section that is approximately 1/2" wide and 1/4" thick. When the #20 wire wrap is completed it works out to be about 1 1/2" wide and 1 1/4" thick over the 90 degree segment, at least in the Proto ZFM that I have built.

          The ZFM Proto design was put together with 3/4 x 1/4 Neo's on an Al rotor and it performed reasonably well, but without much usable torque. I have the Al original rotor being re-machined to accept thicker 3/8 inch Neo's and intend to reassemble and run to obtain more comparison data. The iron core and shaft are also being machined and it remains to be seen which one is done first.

          Dave B. emphasized the difficulty of getting the timing correct, or at least close, with the reed switches. I agree, however I found that by using a short plastic cylinder, in this case a 2 inch PVC coupling, with reed mounting holes spaced 90 degrees apart, seemed to reduce the amount of work. The reeds were positioned inside the coupling lengthwise and the coupling mounted on a wooden track - this method allowed the reed coupling assembly to be moved to and from the timing rotor face, additional the assembly could be rotated to adjust the angular position of the firing angle. This could be done while the motor was in operation to immediately observe the impact of the changes in firing. The reed switches can also be adjusted in or out in the radial direction for fine tuning.

          If need be a short video can be put together of the mounting system.

          The ZFM demo timing rotor is acrylic and has two sets of two (probably) 1/4 D x .100 or .125T Neo's spaced 180 degrees apart. With the ZFM Proto I played with various Neo configurations and found that a single Neo (using 0.100 inch thick) in each hole yields about a 45 degree firing duration. Changing the number of Neo's by progressively double stacking increases the total firing duration to about 70 odd degrees or more. The best RPM (2700) with the ZFM Proto was achieved with the greatest firing duration, but the coils heated up rapidly to 135 F. High coil temps for prolonged periods are not good for PVC!

          Best to all,
          Yaro
          Yaro

          "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

          Comment


          • Yaro,
            Are you using the Doctor's bipolar schematic? If so what ratings are you using on the components? I have used reed switching on my window motor. To big of a trigger magnet can equal to much on time and you will have trouble getting it to the resonant point where it speeds up where it produces less heat on the components/coils. The trigger rotors that I design for the file are fairly easy to twist on the shaft until you find the spot you want where you can permanently mount them. They are set up with small .125 diameter magnets. Without a build of this design I may be pissing on the floor in the dark. I'm feeling motivated to get a start on this.

            DMann

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DMANN View Post
              Yaro,
              Are you using the Doctor's bipolar schematic? If so what ratings are you using on the components? I have used reed switching on my window motor. To big of a trigger magnet can equal to much on time and you will have trouble getting it to the resonant point where it speeds up where it produces less heat on the components/coils. The trigger rotors that I design for the file are fairly easy to twist on the shaft until you find the spot you want where you can permanently mount them. They are set up with small .125 diameter magnets. Without a build of this design I may be pissing on the floor in the dark. I'm feeling motivated to get a start on this.

              DMann
              I am using the ZFM Demo circuit (a bit modified by John B. from Peter's original) as the coil polarity flipping device - this is the circuit James MacDonald assembled from the conference digital pics. James has posted that circuit a couple of pages back, James ordered the parts,assembled them and sent to me for testing. It has functioned without a burp and only warmed to about a 100F when I was thrashing the machine at 36v at maximum firing arc duration.

              The circuit schematic has all the specs and details. It works well!!

              One item to note - one or two small bolts in the rotor body, positioned at 12 o'clock or 0 degrees provides a self aligning and starting feature for the motor. This simple mod makes the timing and tuning process simpler - one of the rotor Neo's will align with the bolts. One of Peter L's neat discoveries!

              Yaro
              Yaro

              "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Yaro1776 View Post

                ... I was becoming a bit concerned that there were few out there interested in the ZFM ...
                Absolutely interested in this thread

                I don't currently have the time, money or equipment to do a proper replication and don't want to detract the builders, so I'll just keep lurking. But looking forward to seeing what you guys build.

                John K.

                Comment


                • What is with the strong attraction between 1:54 and 1:58 of the video. Is there some iron in the core at the "on" period (22.5 degree to 67.5 degree)? That can't be the trigger magnets to the reeds? Maybe it is just the rotor neo to the bolts at the 12 o'clock which conveniently allows it to go to start position.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TICXxP1jI4

                  Mann

                  Answered already End of post #117.
                  Last edited by DMANN; 12-09-2016, 09:15 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by John_Koorn View Post
                    Absolutely interested in this thread

                    I don't currently have the time, money or equipment to do a proper replication and don't want to detract the builders, so I'll just keep lurking. But looking forward to seeing what you guys build.

                    John K.
                    IMG_20161209_123739_978.jpg This may help someone who at least has a little time and money. I mentioned this on another post. SCALABILITY In the picture here I printed the file piece at 50%. Just remember that all parts will be half the diameter. Most likely the wire gauge would need to decrease to less than 30 awg.

                    On the opposite end, someone may want to scale up 200% - 400%. Those bearing sizes will be less popular and you may need to make a sleeve to fit your bearing size in the hole (easy solution and not compromising to the integrity of the structure). 400% At x:404.662 mm y: 452.001 mm z: 101.6 mm That would be a large 3D printer.

                    Just for thought

                    Mann

                    Comment


                    • Update:

                      Just started experimenting again on this, nothing worth a video yet, went a little backwards, not dispiritingly so, also saw some findings maybe worth mentioning. My last version where I ran it at 90 mW for 1000-1100 RPMs had eight 1x1x1/2 magnets oriented NS tangentially with one or more iron core coils. These magnets have a pull strength of about 20 lbs or so. Picked up four 2x1x1/2 magnets with a pull strength of about 40 lbs. I'll get to the interesting stuff in a minute, but first problem was really, really difficult to put these magnets in place on a CD with any precision. Without going into it too much, after great effort I placed the first two magnets on a single CD, which promptly started bending to bring the magnets together. I realized I should have built a square scaffolding on the CD to start, hey if it were a ferromagnetic block that would solve your problem and not have the magnets wanting to fly off easily (not sure if that factored in to the real ZPM build but it sure would make things easier and safer). Don't have a ferromagnetic block, maybe shapeways down the line, but the build was not 1/5th as precise as I would have liked.

                      So just random coil the new machine was running 600 rpms 90 mWs. It would show 599.5, 600, 599.5 etc as you see with magnets not evenly spaced and an unbalanced rotor where there is no clear sweet spot. A few interesting things though, first with these very very powerful magnets it ran better with an air core, 500 vs 600 RPMs and you finally needed to see a gap with the iron core for best performance. 2) This machine makes no sense, I see how it behaves not real clear on the why or what. Running with the air core as RPMs increased and there was the motor/generator coil decrease in amp draw the air core basically drew no more power than the iron core. When you consider the coil is on for a very, very long time with this machine it is really something. Running an air coil w/o too many winds for a long time should be a huge amp draw but it is not with this machine once it spins up. Not to pick on Yaro but he provides some good data in that he is using much weaker magnets with an air coil, the rest of the machine being very closely scrutinized and uses perhaps a hundred or more times more power to spin a lighter rotor to same rpms. It seems there is a tremendous feedback that goes on, not to harp on this but it makes little sense to me that my machine did not draw more current with the air core, very strange.

                      Second, JB showed a video where the direction of the spike in this machine reversed whether there was an iron core present or not. When I ran the Mk II one last secret, I pulled off the radiant to a battery or some such, something anyone "skilled in the art" would likely try at some point, it was good for another 100 or so RPMs. With the air core I shunted the radiant to a 1.5 volt battery and it acted like a loaded pick-up coil, it slowed way the heck down, reversed spike. I also recall John writing this wasn't a generator machine, well maybe but it will run real real slow.

                      So what's next? First I want to rebuild the Mk II with a little more precision and see what I get, using the coils I use, that 20 lb pull wt is about the maximum I suspect you might use before wanting to go to an air core. Next I want to try and build the mk III with at least some precision. From there distribute the lines of force. I will look to do this by placing multiple coils in series (I have a lot of 22 gauge wire lying around and a lot empty one pound coils so that is the first attempt). I don't think you need to set things up exactly like the conference machine, you just need to get lots of lines of force distributed around the perimeter, there is even some JB video, don't know where now where John was talking about the ZFM then mentions the numerous easy force motors he 3d printer built and was saying essentially if I recall right, you could set it up something like that.

                      So I think I am still on track, will post a vid when I have improvement from my last efforts.

                      Paul Maher, MD MPH

                      Comment


                      • Zero Force Motor Rotor & Axle Material Dat Sheet

                        Hi All --

                        I just wanted to add some more information given to me from the company that makes the DOD
                        quality "Fe" material for the axle and rotor fabrication. See the attached material data sheets on what
                        I bought. My Machinist told me he could get to making the Rotor and Axle after Christmas.

                        -- James

                        Material Data Sheet 0.500 inch.zip

                        Comment


                        • Hey

                          Here is an update on the 3D Printed version. I'm going to test some different printed rotors and magnet sizes once I get some wire on the stators. I look forward to seeing others data for the iron rotor as a comparison.
                          IMG_20161219_175443_188.jpg

                          DMann

                          Comment


                          • DMann,

                            Really good looking components that you have created with the 3D printer - all looks good! It will be very interesting to see how this effort progresses with respect to performance. Comparing performance notes, if you will.

                            Happy Holidays,
                            Yaro
                            Yaro

                            "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DMANN View Post
                              Hey

                              Here is an update on the 3D Printed version. I'm going to test some different printed rotors and magnet sizes once I get some wire on the stators. I look forward to seeing others data for the iron rotor as a comparison.
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]5701[/ATTACH]

                              DMann
                              The only thing I would note is the core shape. It looks like you have a square inside rather than an elongated/flat rectangle, not sure how much of a difference that will make - Johns 3d printed version was round I think...?
                              KR - Patrick

                              Comment


                              • ZFM Proto Mods AL Rotor and Vid 3

                                Holiday Greetings to all,

                                The Aluminum rotor mod was completed first and the upgraded Neo's (3/4"Dx 3/8"T N52) installed. After the assembly of the rotor Neo's the unit was installed in the motor assembly. The greater strength Neo's markedly improved the speed performance of the ZFM proto at all operating dc voltages (12, 24 and 36voltages). However, the torque on the motor with this rotor remains low... There is no high speed O-scope available to inspect the voltages to the coils in detail.

                                Results
                                Timing Arc about 40 -45 degrees
                                1. 12v - 485rpm - 0.75A
                                2. 24v - 1377rpm - 1.37A adjust timing
                                3. 36v - 2025rpm - 1.75A

                                Timing Arc about 45 - 50 degrees
                                1. 12v - 785rpm - 0.85A
                                2. 24v - 1615rpm - 1.39A
                                3. 36v - 2415rpm - 1.77A

                                Timing Arc about 65 - 70 degrees
                                1. 12v - 977rpm - 1.12A
                                2. 24v - 2079rpm - 1.80A
                                3. 36v - 3157rpm - 2.13A

                                Timing Arc about 70 - 80 degrees
                                1. 12v - 1105rpm - 1.40A
                                2. 24v - 2474rpm - 2.09A
                                3. 36v - 3695rpm - 2.50A

                                The ZFM Proto data does indicate that for the ZFM AL Proto the following were demonstrated:
                                1. The speed increases with voltage for all firing arc durations.
                                2. The firing arc duration is influenced by the size and number of timing rotor magnets. The greater the magnetic field influence the greater the firing arc duration. This can be modified by the relative distance of the timing rotor Neo's to the reed switches - in the above instances maximum rpm was desired.
                                3. The amperage from the battery increases with greater firing arc duration and resultant rpm.
                                4. The magnetic strength of the rotor magnets modifies the speed of the ZFM at all the input voltages tested

                                The above data is not definitive, but can be viewed as an indicator of performance and motor behavior.



                                Excuse the rez on the video - a bit challenged here in the hills with the upload speed. However do note the wave pattern in the last segment of the video. This pattern is very reminiscent of the patterns produced by the SSG wheel at higher speeds in the transition zones. I looked at this very closely back earlier this year - amazing similarities.

                                There is still much that can be learned from the Aluminum rotor ZFM, alas the iron core rotor will be completed tomorrow and if all goes well it should be operational before New Year's day. The iron rotor will have four 3/4"Dx3/8"T Neo's glued to the rotor. The recommended adhesive from the techies at Loctite is 332 along with the primer 7387 obtained from Applied Industrial Technologies. Pricey for a years supply...

                                May the Spirit of Christmas gladden your lives,
                                Yaro
                                Yaro

                                "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

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