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Zero Force Motor Replication Project

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  • #16
    ZFM Firing Circuit Detail

    Hello Gyula,

    Thank you for your very informative posts concerning some of the design details of the ZFM. Your magnet configuration diagram and explanation of the operation certainly make a lot of sense and clarify the basic operation of the ZFM. So this is one ZFM configuration that will work assuming the machine that was operated and inspected at the conference is unmodified.

    In JB's presentation of the ZFM he spent quite a bit of time explaining the magnetic fields that are within the ZFM and he stated that at 45 degrees between each set of the four N facing neo's was a Super Pole and that was one of the reasons that the triggering of the toroidal coils took place at the Bloch wall point of each coil as the magnet passed. This point reinforced the prior presentation's highlights of diamagnetic and paramagnetic fields as put forth by R. Haralick.

    Anyway two different views here and I will attempt to get additional information and details on the existing original ZFM that was demonstrated at the conference. Happy to try both configurations if need be, not a stumbling block at all. Perhaps I can also obtain a better image of the magnetic field arrangement for others' reference.

    In any case, I have attached a more detailed pic from my cell phone that depicts the ZFM's four transistor firing circuit. Perhaps your examination of the pic will confirm the NSNS rotor neo arrangement.

    Appreciate your analysis and input,
    Yaro

    ZFM Circuit.jpg
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

    Comment


    • #17
      John_Bedini_Zero_Force_Motor

      One of my favorites

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Yaro,

        I do think that the machine shown at the conference was unmodifed and sure was in the same condition as Peter built it years ago. I base this on John's normal habit of not disassemble any device but build another one if you want to experiment with it.

        Re on the super poles that develop between any two North poles, I accept this but remember that this explanation is valid for this 3D simple zero force motor where the rotor magnets are positioned with all North poles radially outside. And if you listen to John's talk again from video time 2:48 to 3:14 in his video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQzcYZk9MWA you can hear "...but normally you'd have two South and 2 North poles" and I think the 'normally' can only mean the other setup shown at the conference. I think on superpoles John has always meant two identical magnetic poles (either NN or SS) placed near to or touching each other so that the two identical poles are able to reinforce each other by summing up the fields.
        In the setup shown at the conference, superpoles cannot develop due to the alternating NSNS rotor magnet poles but I believe this 'lack' is amply 'compensated' by the fact that each rotor pole is simultaneously pushed and pulled by the alternating poles of the coils as the 2 reeds control the H-bridge.
        As John mentioned the simple version (the 3D one in the above video) is easier to build, it has a single reed to control the single transistor to energize the two series coils.
        The setup shown at the conference has 6 transistors alltogether (4+2) and 2 reeds. The inductance hence the performance of the coils is increased by the 4 + 4 strands of wire. The use of the half curved bobbins insure the magnetic poles at the ends of the coils can be closer to the rotor poles, this way they are able to exert higher tossing and pulling forces (thus increasing shaft torque) with respect to the straight vertical coils used in the demo 3D setup.

        Thanks for the attached picture, it is surely the Bedini-Cole sequental bipolar switching circuit, (shown for instance in the youtube video I referred to in reply #12), the two Hall sensors indicated in that schematic is left out and the green wires coming from the reeds are soldered to the 1 kOhm resistors that then connect to the bases of the input transistors. (The other pins of the reeds ,black wires, are tied to the common battery negative of course.)

        Gyula

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Yaro1776 View Post
          Hello Gyula,

          Thank you for your very informative posts concerning some of the design details of the ZFM. Your magnet configuration diagram and explanation of the operation certainly make a lot of sense and clarify the basic operation of the ZFM. So this is one ZFM configuration that will work assuming the machine that was operated and inspected at the conference is unmodified.

          In JB's presentation of the ZFM he spent quite a bit of time explaining the magnetic fields that are within the ZFM and he stated that at 45 degrees between each set of the four N facing neo's was a Super Pole and that was one of the reasons that the triggering of the toroidal coils took place at the Bloch wall point of each coil as the magnet passed. This point reinforced the prior presentation's highlights of diamagnetic and paramagnetic fields as put forth by R. Haralick.

          Anyway two different views here and I will attempt to get additional information and details on the existing original ZFM that was demonstrated at the conference. Happy to try both configurations if need be, not a stumbling block at all. Perhaps I can also obtain a better image of the magnetic field arrangement for others' reference.

          In any case, I have attached a more detailed pic from my cell phone that depicts the ZFM's four transistor firing circuit. Perhaps your examination of the pic will confirm the NSNS rotor neo arrangement.

          Appreciate your analysis and input,
          Yaro

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]5449[/ATTACH]
          If you think about the full bipolar Bedini/Cole ckt in terms of the window motor and magnet NSNSNS arrangement in relation to the coil and the "180 degree" timing it should become very clear. All that is happening is the ckt allows you to switch the direction of current in the coil so what ever magnet arrangement you choose is up to your imagination.

          The big difference being the ZFM's coil and timing.

          Comment


          • #20
            Turning the Corner

            Greetings Gyula and Patrick,

            Your explanations and examples are very clear for which sincere thanks is extended. I am sure at this point the many that have been following this thread have a much better perception how this motor works. Some enlightenment is always welcome and a solid foundation helps immensely.

            Now comes the other aspect of putting together a relatively simple design that all interested can replicate, perhaps not the full monty, but at least an effort to get this on a roll. The eventual goal is to have a performance data set.

            The initial impetus for this project was the conference demonstration of the motor's torque capability. The question then arose as to the actual power consumption versus its output performance - unfortunately this type of information is or was not accessible or readily available. I heard the gears clicking in many heads already visualizing a standard or hybrid generator - alternator driven by a ZFM version. Can this vision be realized into a truly useful driver or is it destined to be another curio gathering dust on the shelf? Interesting to see how all this develops.

            Attached ZFM Mag Field.pdf

            Stay tuned and have patience,
            Yaro
            Last edited by Yaro1776; 07-26-2016, 02:19 PM. Reason: Typo
            Yaro

            "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Yaro1776 View Post
              Greetings Gyula and Patrick,

              Your explanations and examples are very clear for which sincere thanks is extended. I am sure at this point the many that have been following this thread have a much better perception how this motor works. Some enlightenment is always welcome and a solid foundation helps immensely.

              Now comes the other aspect of putting together a relatively simple design that all interested can replicate, perhaps not the full monty, but at least an effort to get this on a roll. The eventual goal is to have a performance data set.

              The initial impetus for this project was the conference demonstration of the motor's torque capability. The question then arose as to the actual power consumption versus its output performance - unfortunately this type of information is or was not accessible or readily available. I heard the gears clicking in many heads already visualizing a standard or hybrid generator - alternator driven by a ZFM version. Can this vision be realized into a truly useful driver or is it destined to be another curio gathering dust on the shelf? Interesting to see how all this develops.

              Attached [ATTACH]5450[/ATTACH]

              Stay tuned and have patience,
              Yaro

              Apologize about the obvious mistake in my first attempt at analysis. I have had a chance to wind some wire on a stick and see how a magnet on a rotor behaves when this magnet is pulsed at different times. The behaviour is strange so if we have a magnet rotating in counter-clockwise towards our inductor a pulse with the magnet approaching will, in this case, say pull the magnet in, so counter-clockwise force, once in the interior a pulse will push the same magnet clockwise, crossing the Bloch wall to the other side of the interior of the coil another pulse will again give a clockwise force leaving the end of the coil one once again gets a counter-clockwise push. There is no pull at the Bloch wall. The coil seems to arrange a magnetic field that is S/n/s/N. Given this I will have another go at the machine demonstrated at the conference. As an aside I did make a five minute video of the above findings just to document for my sake, will post if anyone is interested nothing at all dramatic and watching videos I realize can be boring and time consuming. It looked to me though I couldn't be sure that the magnets on the conference machine were large rectangular magnets. While I haven't tested any of this a possibility that fits with the above is that the magnets are not arranged either all N facing out or alternately N then S facing out. They are arranged NS tangentially at the edge of rotor. Such an arrangement would simultaneously make use of the forces both at the edge of the coil and the interior. It would also explain why you would want to switch coil polarity. Lastly the machine had an odd magnet arrangement for timing the reed switches. There were two small circular magnets placed side by side. I initially thought maybe this was some sort of version of focusing the magnetic beam like glued N/N magnets. The fields the rotor is running on are quite spread out however. I think the two magnets are instead to give a much longer pulse. Unlike a pulse motor the ZFM is likely on most of the time and pulling/pushing all the while, this might explain the torque. My analysis again may be incorrect but I think it is worth considering that the magnets may be NS on the tangent.

              As Patrick mentioned there are different ways to try and make use of the fields spreading out from the sides of an inductor. To Yaro's point I think I have come up with a way of taking advantage of the fields at top and bottom and at least part of the field in the interior that obviates the need for a bipolar commutator. Not certain whether my approach will have much torque or not, it may be a dud but I think I will try and build that before an attempt at the other because it will be easier and just out of curiosity.

              Z

              Comment


              • #22
                Yaro,

                John asked me to post this here and he'll come in here to respond:

                At the conference RS and I took multiple pictures and closeups, checked the wiring resistance to get a sense of the wire lengths used for the coil, and measured the shaft diameter along with other dimensions. Used a piece of graph paper to estimate the shaft at 0.375". Ha!

                JB used four #20 strands in series to wrap each segment of the coil in the figure eight config. Each strand was about 0.8 ohms, however the total resistance was 2.5 ohms. So there is an apparent error here on our part for estimating the length of wire required for each side of the toroid. This may be an area that you can help out with.

                RS is looking into 3D printing a two segment toroid for the two windings on the toroid. From what I can see the assembly and parts appear to be very straightforward. I have enough experience in mechanical design and machine shop practice to knock off any dimensional prints required. Need some time to examine the relevant pics.
                Aaron Murakami





                You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                Comment


                • #23
                  ZFM Neo Magnet and Timing

                  Hey Z,

                  Give your magnet orientation idea a shot - worth the effort to convince yourself about the validity of your reasoned approach. Good to go!

                  When I played with three of my SSG magnets today, I placed two parallel to each other lengthwise on a smooth pad with North face out as close to each other as possible and then lowered the third magnet from above with North face down between the sitting magnets. Very interesting to see how the two parallel magnets began to spread out or move (as expected) from the approaching North field. Mimics, in part, the affect of the toroidal pole in the ZFM. Sorry, a bit off tangent here, perhaps too much after dinner yogurt.

                  I did look more closely at one of the ZFM pics showing the Neo magnets within the rotor assembly. The magnet was described as three quarter inch by JB - never did ask square or round. Anyway, I inspected the magnet size with my CAD software and noted that the apparent thickness of the magnet is about one half of the 0.750 inch width, perhaps close to 0.350 inch as scaled. Most of the Neo's offered for sale in that size are about an eighth of an inch in thickness - so another area of that is a bit indistinct in the ZFM information and spec's. They may be stacked in the demo ZFM or of a special size.

                  My first intention is to build a simplified prototype that will display the basic characteristics of twin toroid or coil operation with the 90 degree firing sequence - be it with all NNNN or with NSNS Neo config or with whatever develops... Still working on the rotor and then the electrics. This is garden harvest time so have patience...

                  Good eye picking up the apparent twin magnets used for triggering the reed switches. Your thought on expanding the coil on time may have much merit. It also appears that trigger magnets are not truly aligned with the rotor Neo's. Perhaps a simple means of timing adjustment? - note the set screw on the timing rotor allowing rotational adjustment.

                  Done for the day and appreciate your attention,
                  Yaro
                  Yaro

                  "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ZPDM View Post
                    ....
                    ...I think the two magnets are instead to give a much longer pulse. Unlike a pulse motor the ZFM is likely on most of the time and pulling/pushing all the while...

                    Originally posted by Yaro1776 View Post
                    ...
                    Good eye picking up the apparent twin magnets used for triggering the reed switches. Your thought on expanding the coil on time may have much merit. It also appears that trigger magnets are not truly aligned with the rotor Neo's. Perhaps a simple means of timing adjustment? - note the set screw on the timing rotor allowing rotational adjustment.
                    ...

                    Hi Folks,

                    Let's examine the timing question because it is surely crucial to the overall performance.

                    By judging the length of the coils from the photos vs the OD of the toroidal bobbin and 'eyeball matching' it to my proposed switching sequence shown in my post #11, I think the ON time for the switch to energize all the series coils must be between say 38 and 45 (see my drawing how I mean a 45arc) and you need to consider this ON time 4 times within a full 360turn for the rotor. This would give 4 times 45= 180 (maximum allowable ON time value) i.e. the coils (all in all) are ON for half of a rotor turn and OFF for the other half rotor turn.
                    If you choose an ON time higher than 45, your input current goes higher than optimum and rpm and shaft torque gets reduced. If you choose say less than 38- 40 ON time, your input current draw would be less than the optimum but so would rpm and torque be less too, so this latter case depends on the application purpose of the motor.

                    Hence, to ensure the correct ON time for the reed switches you need to choose small magnet size(s) and strength to meet the requirement. The two small ceramic magnets can surely ensure the ON time appropiate for the given sized setup. Of course, using opto coupler triggering or Hall sensors is also an option, with ON time adjusment possibilities.

                    This is how I think the ON time question, provided my proposed switching sequence is ok for this advanced setup.

                    PS In the drawing below I have included 4 gray arrow symbols to show the attract forces appearing the moment the coils are switched ON (suppose they provide the indicated magnetic poles at their ends). The appearing poles will not only attract the nearest unlike poles of the rotor magnets but repel the nearest like poles of the rotor magnets, all occuring at the same time.

                    Gyula
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Zero Force

                      At All,
                      All you guys should build a very simple machine first it is good to have all your theorys but stop and analyze what you were shown. Im going to post the original drawing, start at this point and do not advance until you understand what I was looking for. I have gone through all this posting and your just confusing yourself. I first notice this when I was playing with a permanent magnetic motor. Do not listen to Tin power, or Lidmotor as they do not know anything about how to make this work. Or what I was after with this machine. Peter L was straight forward with your questions at the conference. The people watching the demonstration I presented know the power of this machine as it was just coasting.
                      At 36 volts it was about 5 to 8 thousand RPM any more you would have run out of the room. Peter said min RPM around 10 to 15 Thousand with optical switching. Good luck with bearings at that point. This machine is running in an A field where no magnetism should escape or effect anything on the outside of the machine. The switching is important and the magnetic field is rotating inside the machine free from any back EMF, this machine does not generate any energy to be recovered. Another words its not a generator of any kind. This machine can be very dangerous if the magnets fly out of the rotor. The magnets are taped and then sealed in the plastic rotor. I have had the proto-types fly apart good thing I was nowhere near it. Wait I will post the first drawing as soon as I can, meanwhile confuse yourself but not too much. The switching is a basic BI-polar switch but can be made more powerful like I used on the Ferris Wheel where the Coils resonate with each other as RS is about to find out soon.
                      John B
                      John Bedini
                      My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi John,

                        Sorry for all the guesswork from my part, you know I have been curious about this setup that I got overwhelmed when the photos and some description in this thread revealed details I did not know or could not figure out earlier.

                        You mentioned the no Lenz no back emf feature several years ago when you showed the first simple video in which there was a single coil wound onto a solder bobbin (min2oly included a link to it in Page 2, Reply#17). However, during the years no any other detail has been given, not until last year when you kindly returned to it in the 3D Monopole thread. And I have tried connecting the dots, combining what you shared on it last year and seeing the photos on it from the recent conference.

                        I sincerely thank you for sharing!

                        Gyula

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Zero Force

                          Gyula,
                          I do not always give everything out as I want you to figure it out for yourself if you figure it out your learning. Im going to post a simple drawing I want to see if the group can build and understand the way it operates in a simple form before you move on to a much bigger unit. I think peter told everybody what was going on in the motor. However I have just said that it runs inside an A field I want you to look up something that had to do with Joe Newman . I think I once seen a motor built by him that was running on the outside of a coil it was vertical and magnets were horizontal the magnets were not inside the coil, what field was it running on? You also saw a motor on a YouTube where I had a coil horizontal and the magnets vertical, it really does not make any difference which way you do it as long as you do it. Again is all in the switching and when it is switched. Im going through my early lab notes I just need to scan them.
                          John
                          John Bedini
                          My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by John_Bedini View Post
                            I do not always give everything out as I want you to figure it out for yourself if you figure it out your learning.
                            Hi John,

                            Of course I understand this and I did not mean it.

                            I heard about the "A" field but in connection with this setup I have not considered it until recently, unfortunately.

                            I have come across and worked with toroidal coils the center of which a straight piece of wire is guided through (kind of current transformers, directional couplers etc), these work on the "A" field. But when you use and work with them, you do not normally consider an "A" field is involved... And in conventional EE teaching the "A" field is not that much emphasised.
                            I think here is an interesting test with a ferromagnetic toroidal core to show the presence of the A field, outside of closed magnetic path for the input primary coil:
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-EuPGl8JjE


                            I think I once seen a motor built by him that was running on the outside of a coil it was vertical and magnets were horizontal the magnets were not inside the coil, what field was it running on? You also saw a motor on a YouTube where I had a coil horizontal and the magnets vertical, it really does not make any difference which way you do it as long as you do it.
                            Well they surely work on the "A" field existing on the outside of solenoids too.

                            Thanks, Gyula

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Has anyone else been working on this recently? I have, I understand now why it is called a zero force motor and it is blowing my mind. So my first build here is a dud, didn't work as well as a push/pull SSG, but you can get to there and look at things and say oh if one changed things here is that problem and that problem solved. Again, my build was not great but from observing the behaviour I will say that I believe Bedini's ZFM is not conceptually terribly complicated, i.e., it is elegant, and it is superior, once built well, to Tesla's AC induction motor which runs so much of society.

                              I have some video of how I got to the thinking I am at now and will post if anyone is interested. John thank you for sharing this.
                              Last edited by ZPDM; 08-03-2016, 12:35 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hey Z,

                                I have been working on this but along a different line that is more focused on the existing demo design. Waiting for JB to post his simplified version sketch to try.

                                I do agree with your statements that the design is not overly complicated, however the timing and firing circuit are really the major details that pull it all together into a usable form.

                                Conceptually it is simple and, as you say, elegant.

                                Sending you a PM.

                                Yaro
                                Yaro

                                "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

                                Comment

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