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Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

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  • Originally posted by BroMikey
    Aaron

    This gray tube drawing is great to help others understand hookups for high voltage flash of good colors. You could put it up with a tesla coil and mini lightning.

    Will it charge a battery for you, or are these just fun experiments you had done. I like green flashes too.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]2028[/ATTACH]
    I have done many battery charging experiments with the "green plasma" and yes, it does charge them up. I think there is a lot of experimentation that needs to be done with this.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

    Comment


    • Originally posted by subadude View Post
      Yeah, Aaron, I noticed the ferrite ring on the Granatelli's when I was searching for wires. Major reason I picked 'em, and the plug terminal stuff was a serendipity.

      I've wondered about using similar ferrite pieces for other areas of this mod, like over the wires connecting diode blocks to plug wires. But I lack expertise to know any more of this. I also searched for braided sheathing for these same wires, the white silicone insulated ones w/ the heat shrink tubing.

      Josh Lee over at Silver State Wire and Cable said he has a few versions of braided sheathing, I plan on looking him up to see what he's got. If that works out I'll post on it.

      If anybody can add info 'bout dealing w/ RFI interference, that would be Great!

      Thanks, subadude.
      @ SUBADUDE: Any kind of news yet from Josh Lee? (wish we had the same service in my country)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Willem Coetzee View Post
        @ SUBADUDE: Any kind of news yet from Josh Lee? (wish we had the same service in my country)
        Hi Wellem, yes I talked w/ Josh recently, he said he's got some different braided sheathing, and that one end of such needs to be grounded, which I already knew. and yes you are right I'm lucky that his shop and places like Summit Racing are right here! In fact Silver State is 5 minutes from Summit out in Sparks.

        I'll go see him next week, have to remember to ask about ferrite rings. But remember that all the stuff I used for the Plasma mod is or should be available online. And that's why I shared contact info for Josh and Silver State! I don't think the green wire and heat shrink are so exotic, I just wanted to find a brick/mortar supplier. BTW Josh Lee's email is: josh@silverstatewire.com

        subadude

        Comment


        • Water vapor injection?

          OK so tonite I impulsively ordered a water vapor injection setup for the Plasmatized Subie. Been thinking 'bout this awhile--after all this idea has been/was originally spoken of as a way to use water in engines. Not going to try to replace gasoline, just add a bit of water vapor into the intake below the carb. Probably introduce thru the PCV valve, it's capped off now.
          Anyone else here done anything like this? thoughts, criticisms, ideas, questions...?

          One thing I don't like about adding this way is it causes a vacuum leak, but water vapor thru carb top could rust things in there.

          anyhow I'll post results as it goes

          subadude

          Comment


          • Can be done direct at bell. Creating superheated steam to point of ignition damper. Excellant cylinder cleaner. May produce pitting by water trap behind ring.

            Peter

            Comment


            • Originally posted by subadude View Post
              Hi Wellem, yes I talked w/ Josh recently, he said he's got some different braided sheathing, and that one end of such needs to be grounded, which I already knew. and yes you are right I'm lucky that his shop and places like Summit Racing are right here! In fact Silver State is 5 minutes from Summit out in Sparks.

              I'll go see him next week, have to remember to ask about ferrite rings. But remember that all the stuff I used for the Plasma mod is or should be available online. And that's why I shared contact info for Josh and Silver State! I don't think the green wire and heat shrink are so exotic, I just wanted to find a brick/mortar supplier. BTW Josh Lee's email is: josh@silverstatewire.com

              subadude
              Hi Subadude - EXITING STUFF !!! Like I said... we don't have places (or service) here in South Africa, like Summit Racing (lot of gray-market rip-off) - does Summit Racing also have a website?

              Comment


              • Summit Racing

                Hi Willem, sure : www.summitracing.com don't know 'bout shipping, customs, etc. I'm just super lucky they are right here. Actually the Murakami Plasma Jet Ignition mod to my Subaru was nearly all "mail order or Internet" sourced for parts. Only thing I got at Summit was the MSD Tach Adapter needed to keep my ECM happy re: RPM signal, it needed a boost. Without that adapter, the car would start w/ check engine light on, run 2-1/2 min. then stall. Prob. no one at Summit would even know what in heck this is, they are all about hot rods muscle cars/trucks, etc. But still a valuable resource!

                subadude

                Comment


                • Ladies & Gents, Aaron, Subadude, et all, would you please, give me your advice or point me in the right direction as to the following: (a bit of background info first)
                  I have read and re-read "ignition secrets" and I have installed the Gadgetman grooved throttle body on my 3.5L V6 FI Mitsubishi Montero Endeavor, along with a MAPster between ECU (PCM) and MAP.
                  My next step is to install a plasma ignition IAW Aaron's "ignition secrets." I have ordered a set of Granatelli zero-resistor spark plug wires and 6 custom-made double tungsten plugs.
                  I found out the Mitsubishi has a distributor less ignition system or "waste spark system" using three coils, each firing simultaneously in cylinder pairs, one in compression while the other one is in exhaust phase. My understanding with such is that one plug arcs positive to ground and the other one arcs ground to positive, causing opposite pitting of the electrodes unless minimized through use of denser precious alloys but most of all, it seems to prevent plasma from working on half the cylinders as the diodes blow on those cylinders receiving reversed polarity.
                  Hence my questions:

                  1 is there a way around it? What is it?

                  2 can this system be converted to "coil on plug" system? If so, how?

                  3 I see www.MSDignition.com has an MSD DIS-4 Plus Ignition (PN 62152) unit that seems approved for 6 cylinder distributor less systems, BUT is specifically says it will not work with straight core plugs and zero resistor wires due to EMI. Of course Granatelli claims the doughnut on their wire addresses RFI and EMI both. What do you all think/know? I could care less about the radio but I surely one to make sure I keep the PCM happy.

                  4 does this MSD change anything to the opposite polarities of the paired cylinder plugs?

                  (My thought here is that as long as the same cylinder gets the HV from the same polarity side of the HV coil and the other paired cylinder always get the other one that I could have two wires coming from the primary of each coil, each going to a bank of 25 diodes and from there another wire going to the HV connector inside the boot that mounts on the plug. One bank of diode would be in opposite direction to account for the opposite polarity)

                  5 Assuming I get the plasma going, either with the current distributor less setup or with a coil on plug or (fill-in with your suggestion), will the MAPster I am using in series between the ECU(PCM) and MAP be sufficient to tweak the fuel for the new hopefully more complete burn resulting from the plasma ignition or will I need a quad-band EFIE, further complicating things? In that case, would the EFIE supplement the MAPster or replace it?

                  6 I am having some plugs made with double tungsten. What electrode configuration would you recommend on zero resistor plasma plug? Would a J strap with tungsten pad and tungsten center electrode be good and if so with what kind of gap? (My understanding, here is that a "fat" electrode beats a thin pointy one with plasma ... Is that correct?)

                  Would a tungsten center electrode, slightly recessed and a tungsten ring on the perimeter be better? How much recess? How much gap? Would the recessed center tungsten simply no jump to the closest point on the casing, rather then seeking the tungsten ring?

                  Would a tungsten center electrode with a vertical post parallel to the center electrode but mounted on the casing and with a tungsten pad be better? What gap would be optimum? Would it be better with two or three such posts on the periphery? I am told the Krupa Firestorm style was replicated and did not work well? Is that correct?

                  7 with regard to the MSD DIS-4 Plus Ignition (PN 62152) or the MSD DIS-4, I recall Aaron saying in the book that some boxes do not connect the caps directly to the coil(s) but use some sort of "chopper circuitry" that prevents the plasma from occurring ... I called MSD tech but could not really find the questions to ask as I was not understanding it myself. What am I looking for to ensure that the MSD-DIS will work with plasma on my 2000 Montero Endeavor? I would have gone with the apparently proven Streetfire box but it seems that my choices are more limited, given the waste spark system my truck uses. I was reluctant to using a higher joules unit but I am told that the plasma ionization despite being way more energetic is actually "cooler" than the weak spark a regular CDI produces, hence does not cause a risk of burning the pistons.
                  Is that a correct statement?

                  Thank you very much in advance, Aaron and everyone on the forum for your input/suggestions.

                  Eric Du Pont

                  Please, forgive my sometime basic and naive questions as I am not a mechanic.

                  PS: If one coil sends HV+ to one cylinder and HV- to the paired cylinder, is it possible to put a string of 25 diodes on each wire and have them in one direction on the HV+ and opposite on the HV- or not? say 1-4, 2-5, 3-6.
                  Is it correct to say 12V battery is connected to MSD and MSD connected to the three coils. If coil 1 does 1 and 4, coil 2 does 2 and 5, coil 3 does 3-6. Could we say have 1, 2 and 3 setup for + diodes and 4,5 and 6 setup for - diodes (orientation of cathodes, that is)?

                  Comment


                  • Hi again lovejets!

                    First off I really recommend the diode blocks instead of strings. I went that way to solve the "how-to construct and install this thing" dilemma I had. Aaron said earlier to look for "ham radio diodes" on Ebay.

                    Spark plugs, well I liked the features of the torquemasters, and my underpoweded engine responded very well to 'em, I installed them before I had diodes for Plasma. The short vid I posted here and on Gadgetman forum I used a cheapo champion non res. plug to show Plasma discharge, didn't feel like pulling the T=Masters out. Torquemasters give a spark that moves and circles around the ring base which is ground, w/ a straight center electrode, no strap at all. But energyrikard showed us earlier in his vid's that the Plasma discharge is less intense looking w/ torquemasters as it gets distributed around the base ground. But I suppose the erosion gets spread out pretty well compared to a strap ground type plug, should give relatively long life. Go to youtube, Danny of Extremespark.com has a vid. there showing their plugs w/ Plasma, it's plenty impressive!

                    Stay w/ your coil pack setup, you have an accessible plug boot/terminal that way.

                    don't know if anybody here knows anything 'bout the Mapster, that's a Gadgetman gadget.

                    I Really Like what Dan on G-Man forum is saying now. but details still lack, pay attention to what he says!
                    There is another type HHO gas he developed, I think he's a sharp cookie!

                    Back on track to Plasma Ignition stuff, I wouldn't let details of plug design hold you up. Others here and elsewhere mention Brisk plugs, think they are in Europe but I think avail. here in USA

                    Again what worked for me was to get plugs/plug wires in, then the MSD. Then the diode blocks and attendant wiring. I had other Ignition issues Ihad to solve along the way, but details of that aren't important here.

                    Subadude

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by subadude View Post
                      Hi Willem, sure : www.summitracing.com don't know 'bout shipping, customs, etc. I'm just super lucky they are right here. Actually the Murakami Plasma Jet Ignition mod to my Subaru was nearly all "mail order or Internet" sourced for parts. Only thing I got at Summit was the MSD Tach Adapter needed to keep my ECM happy re: RPM signal, it needed a boost. Without that adapter, the car would start w/ check engine light on, run 2-1/2 min. then stall. Prob. no one at Summit would even know what in heck this is, they are all about hot rods muscle cars/trucks, etc. But still a valuable resource!

                      subadude
                      Some hot rod mods DO require super sophisticated ECMs added to synergize everything they slap in there for the optimal performance.

                      So I know that most such tuners DO have their own secrets of shielding those ECM's to work with the "old-time fat currents" for those "hot-sparks" needed.

                      Because for some of their clients, money is no object, tuners can't afford lawsuits against them for getting such client's ECMs RMFed...

                      Maybe Summit will surprise you too - asking them just to have a look would cost you nothing?

                      BTW:

                      Do you (or any one else) know if I can post a jpeg here if I upload it to my energy science forum profile?

                      PS:
                      Its actually important because I still owe Aaron a diagram that he asked for!

                      Comment


                      • Does anybody here know if I can post a jpeg if I upload it to my energy science forum profile?

                        Comment


                        • Hi Willem

                          hi Willem, hey just curious is your name/Id a famous name in SA? Not on topic, but thought I saw that name in reference to SA someplace!

                          On JPEG's etc, man I dunno, I rely on a trusted buddy for Kompewtur stuff!

                          What you say about Pro Tuners, I think you're right 'bout that. I don't play on their level...not yet anyhow. But that is Excellent Insight, might be worth chatting up a Pro tuner to see if I can glean anything about RFI Shielding. 'course if one is using a new/standalone ECM system then such provisions might be built in. My question is how do we work with what is already IN a vehicle?

                          I'ts cool of course to custom build anything for cars. But Far more folks in number w/ more basic skills might benefit from Aaron's discovery of a better way to boost up our Ignitions. If we keep hacking away at the jungle, we will have a path. Aaron already told us of the way...we just need to widen it some more! But I believe that Aaron's Ignition Secrets download is where those interested need to start.



                          subadude

                          Comment


                          • Hi Subadude!

                            No, whether fortunately or unfortunately, I'm not THE famous Willem Coetzee. And I definitely share your view - Aaron (and many others - and YOU of course) proved that his system works - but not if it is not followed, or not understood.

                            Therefore, yes, MSD/CDI system with diodes-to-positive connected, and non-resistance plug wires and plugs, is actually plug-n-play - no guessing needed.

                            And like you say, it then is merely a matter of getting one's own installation to work with whats already put there by the manufacturers.

                            I also aspire to have my vehicle ran by plasma ignition - maybe not to the degree of whats possible in a much more modern car like you have, without rebuilding the whole ignition system... that would be defeating the whole objective of "plug-n-play".
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Willem Coetzee; 06-18-2013, 06:22 AM.

                            Comment


                            • @ Aaron:

                              I did get myself a Velleman K2543 Transistor Ignition kit that makes the condenser unneeded, only indirectly uses the points as low volt trigger, and the TDI itself handles switching coil current supply on and off.

                              BUT... although during firing the TDI will disconnect (isolate) the coil "-" from battery "-" (ground), the coil's "+" still is connected to battery "+".

                              So I managed to upload a diagram - its based on your Water Spark Plug diagram:

                              (1) Coil Secondary and diode string flapped over 180 deg to show relation to Coil Core.

                              (2) I show TDI Transistor in stead of a switch, but on the Minus Side, since that's the TDI's wiring orientation.

                              (3) The TDI uses a 630 V 0.22 uf cap to protect the Transistor, so its not part of powering the Coil.

                              (4) It shows electron flow direction from battery "-" to "+" (not standard current flow notation) which gives the Coil Firing Direction too.

                              While 12 V is running through the Coil Primary, it drops the voltage against the current flow oposing the change in current through it.

                              Then when the Transistor is switched off, the Coil drops about 250 V voltage IN THE DIRECTION of the current flow, trying to maintain the level of current flow through it.

                              But it also then shows that the Coil Secondary is fired towards the Battery "+".

                              IS MY DIAGRAM WRONG HERE?

                              Willem Plasma Project.JPG
                              Last edited by Willem Coetzee; 06-18-2013, 06:47 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Hi Guys, I got some good news...

                                When I joined this group in April, I also been getting in contact with Daniel from Extreme Spark regarding Torque Master spark plugs. Initially I just wanted to find out if there is a Torque Master distributor in or close to South Africa. There's non.

                                So I got so far as to receive the minimum prerequisites for a South African distributorship, and I'm now awaiting his reply on what my minimum non-distributor order should be so I can get myself a set or 2 for my own plasma ignition project.

                                Diodes and so on I will get from Rabtron, the same Velleman agency here in South Africa where I bought my Transistor Ignition kit from.

                                The only other loose end is the Plasma Plug leads - I'll need to find a supplier that either stock the correct materials, or one that will be willing to make 'em up for me to spec. .

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