Announcement

Collapse

2020 Energy Science & Technology Conference

Pre-Register for FREE for the 2020 Energy Science & Technology Conference.

Registration Form: http://energyscienceconference.com/r...ation/2020.php
Schedule: http://energyscienceconference.com/2...ence-schedule/
Presenter Bio/Talk Descriptions: http://energyscienceconference.com/2020-speakers/
See more
See less

Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by RB176 View Post
    Ok thanks I can pick up a MSD Street Fire for $149. I read the specs it says multi fire spark to 3000 RPMs after that single fire. Does that affect plasma spark at all? I’m not sure of the microfarads it puts out I’m sure it would be adequate. Also my coil has a 3.0 ohm internal primary resistor do you think this will be a problem or will I be able to use it.
    Can you post a link to the exact Pertronix CDI you mentioned in your other post?

    The Street Fire is about 89 mJ per cap dump - it's around 2uf, which isn't much. After 3000 rpm, there can still be multiple sparks. Low rpm 6-7 per fire and as it goes up, it reduces bit by bit because the cap charging circuit can only charge up so fast.

    The speed that the cap charger won't change the plasma - just a plasma will happen whenever the cap does discharge. If it is once per trigger, then you get one plasma burst per trigger. If it is 6 per trigger, then you get 6 plasma bursts per trigger.

    3 ohms isn't much but I would recommend a coil intended for capacitive discharge systems. I like the Pertronix one because it is fairly low cost for a performance ignition with really low resistance in both the primary and secondary. 0.32 ohms primary - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B002Q363XM only $45 delivered on Amazon prime. MSD has coils with much lower resistance if you can imagine that but they're a few hundred but not necessary.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

    Comment


    • 6CDFBCE6-DEC2-4ADF-B46F-89DB1AAEDCC9.jpg
      Hope this works

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
        Can you post a link to the exact Pertronix CDI you mentioned in your other post?

        The Street Fire is about 89 mJ per cap dump - it's around 2uf, which isn't much. After 3000 rpm, there can still be multiple sparks. Low rpm 6-7 per fire and as it goes up, it reduces bit by bit because the cap charging circuit can only charge up so fast.

        The speed that the cap charger won't change the plasma - just a plasma will happen whenever the cap does discharge. If it is once per trigger, then you get one plasma burst per trigger. If it is 6 per trigger, then you get 6 plasma bursts per trigger.

        3 ohms isn't much but I would recommend a coil intended for capacitive discharge systems. I like the Pertronix one because it is fairly low cost for a performance ignition with really low resistance in both the primary and secondary. 0.32 ohms primary - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B002Q363XM only $45 delivered on Amazon prime. MSD has coils with much lower resistance if you can imagine that but they're a few hundred but not necessary.
        Aaron,
        Can'nt we custom build the Ignition coil, the secondary will have to be multi-layered with epoxy insulation.I guess it can be build much smaller also..
        Rgds,
        Faraday88.
        'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

        Comment


        • 250FE5E8-9376-4B73-B2C1-0DB5713F3FD3.jpgAaron the picture above is the one I spoke of.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by RB176 View Post

            Hope this works
            https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B071PBX2XC
            $234 for module and all harness, etc. pretty good price.

            However, 187mJ per discharge is really strong and would eat your plugs more than twice as fast as the Street Fire if you use it for a plasma ignition system. Keep in mind that even with the smaller 89mJ discharge with the Street Fire that under compression with a lot of air/fuel getting crammed onto the spark, when the cap discharges over the plug, the plasma gets bigger than what you see in open air tests. The air/fuel and mositure in the air feeds the plasma. I think 100mJ per discharge or less is the way to go for regular driving and with good plugs.

            For performance where I don't care about how long plugs last, I'd definitely go with that Pertronix unit.
            Aaron Murakami





            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
              Aaron,
              Can'nt we custom build the Ignition coil, the secondary will have to be multi-layered with epoxy insulation.I guess it can be build much smaller also..
              Rgds,
              Faraday88.
              Yes, but for $45, that is a better deal for me. It would take well over 10 times that amount worth of my time to do it by hand. I guess it depends on where you are and what economy you're working with.
              Aaron Murakami





              You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

              Comment


              • Thanks Aaron, I did a little more reading on the Digital Hp and found another interesting capability of this unit. And that would be that it has 2 power output settings and on low output is 145mj and high is 187mj, still higher than the Street Fire though. In your experience what brand plugs hold up the best with plasma?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                  Yes, but for $45, that is a better deal for me. It would take well over 10 times that amount worth of my time to do it by hand. I guess it depends on where you are and what economy you're working with.
                  Aaron,
                  During my tenure at Honeywell I worked for an 'Ignitor' Project, and we custom made these HEI Spark coil, it was a CDI type of Ignition system and we had these miniature coils hand made with heavy insulation using a material (don't recollect the name) like teflon. including the wire jacket made of the same material.
                  Rgds,
                  Faraday88.
                  'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RB176 View Post
                    Thanks Aaron, I did a little more reading on the Digital Hp and found another interesting capability of this unit. And that would be that it has 2 power output settings and on low output is 145mj and high is 187mj, still higher than the Street Fire though. In your experience what brand plugs hold up the best with plasma?
                    That's a great option to have - still a bit hot on the low setting, but really depends on the plugs.

                    I've used simple off the shelf non-resistor plugs.

                    What I found that I still haven't had time to test are the iridium and/or paladium non-resistor plugs by WeaponX Performance - something like that. Easy to find online. About $15 per plug or so. They look the most promising but of course will not know unless they're actually tested.
                    Aaron Murakami





                    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
                      Aaron,
                      During my tenure at Honeywell I worked for an 'Ignitor' Project, and we custom made these HEI Spark coil, it was a CDI type of Ignition system and we had these miniature coils hand made with heavy insulation using a material (don't recollect the name) like teflon. including the wire jacket made of the same material.
                      Rgds,
                      Faraday88.
                      What was the application for the ignitor? Was it for an oil burner, etc.?

                      What is your opinion on custom making Coil On Plugs with a HV diode built into the potting compound to seal it all up? How would you go about it?
                      Aaron Murakami





                      You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                        What was the application for the ignitor? Was it for an oil burner, etc.?

                        What is your opinion on custom making Coil On Plugs with a HV diode built into the potting compound to seal it all up? How would you go about it?
                        Hi Aaron,
                        It was for a Aerospace Project not sure the end application but must be for a spontaneous combustion kind of Fuel im sure like the Petrol.
                        Yes, Aaron some companies are already making integrated Plug on the Coil. I'm, keen to make a coil to try out what i said for your kind of Plasma Burst,Ido have a few ideas on exactly what you refereed about the HV diode integrated as well.
                        each layer would be about 10-15 turns and several layers over each other, each layer epoxy insulated. (the old CRT EHT Coil)
                        I would use several lower Voltage diode is series to the coil (Intermittently) and the encapsulate them as a ready to fire unit!
                        howz that?
                        Rgds,
                        Faraday88.
                        'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                        Comment


                        • Hi RB176,

                          Originally posted by RB176 View Post
                          .................................................. ..... In your experience what brand plugs hold up the best with plasma?
                          I'm using NGK shunt gap plugs with the plasma ignition in my VW powered Bradley GT. So far, so good. They perform really well in the modified engine. The ignition module is an MSD A6 unit triggered by a hall sensor in the distributor.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Faraday88 View Post
                            Hi Aaron,
                            It was for a Aerospace Project not sure the end application but must be for a spontaneous combustion kind of Fuel im sure like the Petrol.
                            Yes, Aaron some companies are already making integrated Plug on the Coil. I'm, keen to make a coil to try out what i said for your kind of Plasma Burst,Ido have a few ideas on exactly what you refereed about the HV diode integrated as well.
                            each layer would be about 10-15 turns and several layers over each other, each layer epoxy insulated. (the old CRT EHT Coil)
                            I would use several lower Voltage diode is series to the coil (Intermittently) and the encapsulate them as a ready to fire unit!
                            howz that?
                            Rgds,
                            Faraday88.
                            I worked with Arvind briefly who was involved with the other 2 out of 3 inventions in the plasma ignition patent. For a while, he had some company in China integrate the diode into the COPs. The company was flaky so we couldn't rely on the supplying us with product so I had to stop promoting them a long time ago.

                            Yes, there are many COPs out there, even performance ones that don't cost very much. To retrofit a diode is out the question for the average experimenter.

                            If there was a COP with at least an exposed connecting terminal to the top of the plug where an external diode can connect to the top of the plug, that would make it easy - no need to actually have the diode inside. If it was inside, I guess as long as the rating is high enough beyond what is needed so they will not blow out, then would be even easier. Would be nice to be able to turn them off and on, which would be possible with an external diode.

                            COP plasma system is lacking because of the COP/diode issue not being easy for the average person. If I had them, I'd be able to put it on my 2006 Subaru Outback XT 5-speed - this turbo model has the coil on plugs so is a bit more complicated than the coil pack on my 98 Legacy.
                            Aaron Murakami





                            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                            Comment


                            • I’ll be using the PRHVP2A-20 Single Phase High Voltage Rectifier Diode so with these diodes, so I’ll be putting the cathode side towards the plug. Is that correct? Coil + to —>|— towards plug?

                              Comment


                              • Hi RB176,

                                Originally posted by RB176 View Post
                                I’ll be using the PRHVP2A-20 Single Phase High Voltage Rectifier Diode so with these diodes, so I’ll be putting the cathode side towards the plug. Is that correct? Coil + to —>|— towards plug?
                                On my set up the diode (+) is toward the plug and the diode (-) is toward the coil primary that is marked (+) from the MSD box. It all depends on which polarity your coil is.

                                If it doesn't work one way, just swap the leads on the diode. It isn't going to hurt anything if it's backwards. It just won't fire the plug at all if it's wrong. It just shorts out the plug gap if it's backwards.
                                Last edited by Gary Hammond; 12-22-2018, 02:28 PM. Reason: correct spelling

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X