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Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

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  • Originally posted by Richard
    Hi Aaron,

    'high resistance cables that might be 5.5k ohms of resistance since the cap in the plug bypasses that and goes straight over the spark on the plug. '
    Just wondering how can the cable be of such a high resistance? are you referring to the internal resistor in the plug?
    I guess it is either the coil resistance(secondary) or the plug resistor that you are referring to.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.


    Yes, a little sketch would be nice, Aaron. That statement was a bit confusing and appears to be not what you intended.

    Also, in regards to the high voltage circuit resistance (in a system WITHOUT direct ignition), does anyone have any idea what the air gap is in the typical distributor between the rotor and the distributor cap conducting surfaces? There must be some air gap or the rotor would be rubbing and I've never seen rub marks in that area. And how would this air gap compare to the resistance in the rest of the HV circuit? We also have the secondary resistance of the coil which is around 7 ohms DC but the inductive reactance brings that WAY up, especially considering the fast rise time of the spike we want.

    Richard Gieser
    Richard,

    I just posted a link to Faraday88 going to a section in a vid showing 5.5k ohms on a typical ignition cable that would go from distributor to plug.

    I've never seen a secondary on a coil at 7 ohms. Stock ignition coils have a secondary that are about usually about 7.5k - 10.5k ohms. Most that I've seen are 10.5k ohms. Did you mean 7k ohms?

    I've used a number of these coils: 0.32 ohms primary, don't recall secondary resistance at the moment: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B002Q363XM

    For my high voltage n-machine experiment, I used this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B0006302P4

    That has 0.016 ohms primary and I don't recall the secondary resistance on these either.

    In either case, both of these coils have seriously fast rise times.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Richard
      "I've never seen a secondary on a coil at 7 ohms. Stock ignition coils have a secondary that are about usually about 7.5k - 10.5k ohms. Most that I've seen are 10.5k ohms. Did you mean 7k ohms?"


      Yes, thank you for pointing out my error, Aaron.

      So with all these high resistances in the HV circuit I'm concerned about your insistence on 0 ohms. Could you be more specific like less than 10k ohms or less than 1 ohm, etc.?
      I have a '77 Dodge 440 that is in serious need of mileage improvements and will put together an 8 coil direct ignition system when I can afford it.

      Richard Gieser
      0 ohms is just a vague reference as there is always resistance. A 0 ohm spark plug can be up to 5 ohms and the cables may have a couple ohms.

      You could put plasma on the Dodge with a single ignition coil distributed to all 8 plugs - MSD and others makes modules for V8s.

      I would recommend checking out George Wiseman's carburetor enhancer:

      Book: http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/st...-third-edition

      Kit: http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/st...ncer-basic-kit

      Will probably one of the biggest fuel mileage improvements you can make depending on what fuel intake system you have.
      Aaron Murakami





      You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
        Richard,

        I just posted a link to Faraday88 going to a section in a vid showing 5.5k ohms on a typical ignition cable that would go from distributor to plug.

        I've never seen a secondary on a coil at 7 ohms. Stock ignition coils have a secondary that are about usually about 7.5k - 10.5k ohms. Most that I've seen are 10.5k ohms. Did you mean 7k ohms?

        I've used a number of these coils: 0.32 ohms primary, don't recall secondary resistance at the moment: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B002Q363XM

        For my high voltage n-machine experiment, I used this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B0006302P4

        That has 0.016 ohms primary and I don't recall the secondary resistance on these either.

        In either case, both of these coils have seriously fast rise times.
        Doubts cleared Aaron!!
        Best Regards,
        Faraday88.
        'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

        Comment


        • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
          It's bigger than that: you're finding a more reliable, repeatable, stable plasma across engine range with some resistance in the circuit? if so, I'd expect a zero resistance cable like the Granatellis discussed earlier plus a low resistance spark plug should work too, no? Get as much of the ignition energy as fast as possible to where it belongs is the name of the game here, to be able to time the power stroke most efficiently.

          Also, @Hellenic Vanagon, does this engine rely on a MAP sensor for fuel delivery?
          #1 Plasma module to the top of the spark plugs: zero resistance, solid core copper tv cables.

          #2 Ignition coil to distributor: 2 KΩ, (2x1 KΩ), suppressors, as terminals for the solid copper core tv cable, the minimum required by the manufacturer, since the EMI/RFI interference does not allow the smooth operation of the ECU. (I check that, at least,the idling speed is going unstable ).

          #3 The vw g60 engine has a, factory adjusted, MAP sensor into the ECU and an, adjusted by the user, MAF sensor, (copot), before the intake manifold.
          Last edited by Hellenic Vanagon; 06-30-2018, 09:47 AM.
          The Syncro Heresy

          Comment


          • My next step is to connect two ignition coils in, primary, parallel or anti-parallel scheme.

            It looks promising but it poses an overload on the triggering unit which may be, I am afraid, fatal, (for the unit).

            My first experiments, on the bench, give impressive results.
            The Syncro Heresy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hellenic Vanagon View Post
              #1 Plasma module to the top of the spark plugs: zero resistance, solid core copper tv cables.

              #2 Ignition coil to distributor: 2 KΩ, (2x1 KΩ), suppressors, as terminals for the solid copper core tv cable, the minimum required by the manufacturer, since the EMI/RFI interference does not allow the smooth operation of the ECU. (I check that, at least,the idling speed is going unstable ).

              #3 The vw g60 engine has a, factory adjusted, MAP sensor into the ECU and an, adjusted by the user, MAF sensor, (copot), before the intake manifold.
              as long as we (that is, YOU) are modifying and tuning what the factory engineers have built, it's probably good to take some of the factors into account that they do as well:

              I'm of a mind that by changing the duration of the ignition event, you're also modifying the ignition timing itself; as such, the pressures (vacuum) in the intake manifold the MAP sensor reads will be altered from what your ECU is accustomed to seeing and possibly be able to adjust for. This leads me to believe we likely need to address that sensor for optimum results. Here's a link that could offer you some insight and solutions:

              http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/node/4077

              The other circuit that's recommended on that page (modifying o2 sensor data to the ECU) would complement this modification as far as being able to tune fuel delivery much in the same way as jetting a carburetor did.

              If you're going to squeeze as much energy as possible out of every drop of fuel by burning it all with a proper ignition, you might as well have some input into how much fuel you throw at the fire, right?

              (LOL, "user adjustable MAF". I love that!)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                "THE" ideal situation is 0 ohms. Any resistances and impedances in a circuit destroy much of the radiant energy.

                The diodes go from the coil + connected to the cap + in the msd/cdi units straight to the top of the spark plug. That bypasses the cables so actually you can use stock high resistance cables that might be 5.5k ohms of resistance since the cap in the plug bypasses that and goes straight over the spark on the plug.

                However, the advantage with lower or no resistance cables is there will be a much stronger initiating spark created by the hv output of the ignition coil. It is still a CDI/MSD spark and is already stronger than 12v input ignition coil spark, but so much of it gets dissipated by the resistance of the cables. Might as well get what you pay for and go as low of resistance as possible without causing computer interference. On old carb cars, Granatellis are probably best.

                The stock plugs are typically around 5.5k ohms as well just like the cables so normally that is around 11k ohms, which is a lot. The secondary in typical black body canister ignition coils are around 10.5k ohms so not sure if that is intentional where they are matching the resistance.

                In summary:

                1. 0 ohm plugs or close to that as possible are necessary so as not to resist the discharge of the cap across it no matter what kind of situation.

                2. Use as low of resistance cables as possible so as not to interfere with on board computers, etc. At minimum, performance cables intended for CDI/MSD ignitions on computer cars is preferrable and on non computer cars, Granatelli is probably best.
                "get as much energy to the spark gap as quickly as possible, whatever it takes and however works best for your application" is what I'm taking from this discussion. also that there will be systemically necessary and unavoidable impedences involved that mitigate that energy delivery, the placement of which may have an effect on overall results/performance; this becomes increasingly important to be mindful of in modern vehicles with computers that are more sensitive to ESD interference.

                The Denso Iridium plugs I had in my old truck were 4.5-4.8k ohms each; that meant a total of just under 10k presented to the waste spark coil, before the wires. How much did that 9-10k resistance lower the 25kV at the spark gaps? How much unburned fuel went out my exhaust?? How much wasted energy? how much environmental damage/wasted money?
                Those of us here are doing something about all of that, thankfully.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
                  as long as we (that is, YOU) are modifying and tuning what the factory engineers have built, it's probably good to take some of the factors into account that they do as well:

                  I'm of a mind that by changing the duration of the ignition event, you're also modifying the ignition timing itself; as such, the pressures (vacuum) in the intake manifold the MAP sensor reads will be altered from what your ECU is accustomed to seeing and possibly be able to adjust for. This leads me to believe we likely need to address that sensor for optimum results. Here's a link that could offer you some insight and solutions:

                  http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/node/4077

                  The other circuit that's recommended on that page (modifying o2 sensor data to the ECU) would complement this modification as far as being able to tune fuel delivery much in the same way as jetting a carburetor did.

                  If you're going to squeeze as much energy as possible out of every drop of fuel by burning it all with a proper ignition, you might as well have some input into how much fuel you throw at the fire, right?

                  (LOL, "user adjustable MAF". I love that!)
                  #1 Very interesting propositions. The solutions about the direct control of the MAP, as well as, of the o2 sensor are reasonable.

                  #2 The question about the changing of the duration of the event is interesting. It seems that there is no rule of the thumb about this, since there are various principles such as a strong unique spark, multiple sparks, strong or mild quenching e.t.c.. For the moment, I think that it is better to use the the present situation as a benchmark for the next steps which may include a lot of changes/adjustments.

                  #3 The "user adjustable MAF" may be Heresy's neologism?
                  The Syncro Heresy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
                    I'm of a mind that by changing the duration of the ignition event, you're also modifying the ignition timing itself; as such, the pressures (vacuum) in the intake manifold the MAP sensor reads will be altered from what your ECU is accustomed to seeing and possibly be able to adjust for. This leads me to believe we likely need to address that sensor for optimum results. Here's a link that could offer you some insight and solutions:

                    http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/node/4077

                    The other circuit that's recommended on that page (modifying o2 sensor data to the ECU) would complement this modification as far as being able to tune fuel delivery much in the same way as jetting a carburetor did.
                    The plasma ignition accelerates the combustion process so the timing can be delayed a bit closer to TDC. In some experiments both cars and generators, some have have even found the best results firing after TDC. My generator is infinitely adjustable and I just adjust it by sound and am not sure what the timing is set at. I never modified the timing on my Subaru EJ25 engine. On my Datsun 620 pickup, I haven't got that far yet.

                    As a note, the o2 sensor circuit should never be used without a combustion enhancer like "hho" or the plasma ignition because it will be too lean. It is the EFIE circuit - electronic fuel injection enhancer or enhancement. I built one with a LED circuit controller for a 1991 Honda Civic DX long time ago - it measures the voltage from the o2 sensor and drops it before sending the signal to the fuel computer so it pumps less fuel. I was using only fuel line magnets and fuel additives. When I got the car, it was doing 32 MPG. By the time i was done, I was able to get 43 MPG on the HWY AND in the city!

                    On my Honda and Subaru, I never modified the air flow sensors.

                    For my Datsun, I'm getting a full range of jets so I can get as lean as possible while still dropping the engine temp - yet to be determined what that is. I have a EGT - exhaust gas temp gauge and there is a blocked off port on the exhaust manifold for an old air pump inlet I believe so I'll try to put it in there.
                    Aaron Murakami





                    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hellenic Vanagon View Post
                      #1 Very interesting propositions. The solutions about the direct control of the MAP, as well as, of the o2 sensor are reasonable.

                      #2 The question about the changing of the duration of the event is interesting. It seems that there is no rule of the thumb about this, since there are various principles such as a strong unique spark, multiple sparks, strong or mild quenching e.t.c.. For the moment, I think that it is better to use the the present situation as a benchmark for the next steps which may include a lot of changes/adjustments.

                      #3 The "user adjustable MAF" may be Heresy's neologism?
                      1- reasonable and possibly necessary to prevent MIL/CEL getting triggered; once you do achieve a leaner burn in the cylinders from an ignition upgrade, the o2 sensor will see a condition of "lean" (too much oxygen in the exhaust) and compensate by delivering more fuel. contrary to our goals, I should say. so MAP and at least upstream o2 sensor(s) need to be convinced that everything is good. The benefit in doing so is regaining the ability to actually tune your car to an extent, as people had in the days of carbs. (The basics haven't changed - the engineers were instructed by their corporations to make it so we would most likely find it daunting to maintain our cars, and as such, bring them to their dealerships for maintenance/repair... I'm on the verge of ranting:
                      collusion...big oil, banking, governments...I'll stop now)

                      2- As I understand it, the computer times ignition in fuel injected cars based on sensory input - MAP and MAF, crank position, knock, possibly TPS and pre and post o2, probably air and coolant temperatures, DPFE for EGR function (which relates to MAP, btw, and IAT, and o2's...interesting and nasty little whirlwind there, eh?) and whatever I'm not remembering at the moment to balance governmental mandates as well as corporate mandates - we also have to understand (by reverse engineering) how and why those work systemically so we can achieve our own goals in modifying the car. Also, valve timing may or may not be fixed, so the sensors have to give the ECU the information it needs to time the ignition event (as it understands it), but we have changed that, so we may have to change a LOT of factors. Like Alice in Wonderland, we go down a rabbit hole taking this on. Again, though: the basics of air, fuel and spark haven't changed; we're messing with spark, so we will also likely have to mess with fuel and air.

                      3- me, I adjust what the MAF sees with my right foot on the accelerator/throttle. I am amused because most people don't see it that way, or understand what they're doing when they hit the "gas pedal."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                        The plasma ignition accelerates the combustion process so the timing can be delayed a bit closer to TDC. In some experiments both cars and generators, some have have even found the best results firing after TDC. My generator is infinitely adjustable and I just adjust it by sound and am not sure what the timing is set at. I never modified the timing on my Subaru EJ25 engine. On my Datsun 620 pickup, I haven't got that far yet.

                        As a note, the o2 sensor circuit should never be used without a combustion enhancer like "hho" or the plasma ignition because it will be too lean. It is the EFIE circuit - electronic fuel injection enhancer or enhancement. I built one with a LED circuit controller for a 1991 Honda Civic DX long time ago - it measures the voltage from the o2 sensor and drops it before sending the signal to the fuel computer so it pumps less fuel. I was using only fuel line magnets and fuel additives. When I got the car, it was doing 32 MPG. By the time i was done, I was able to get 43 MPG on the HWY AND in the city!

                        On my Honda and Subaru, I never modified the air flow sensors.

                        For my Datsun, I'm getting a full range of jets so I can get as lean as possible while still dropping the engine temp - yet to be determined what that is. I have a EGT - exhaust gas temp gauge and there is a blocked off port on the exhaust manifold for an old air pump inlet I believe so I'll try to put it in there.
                        For clarity's sake, when you say accelerate, I think you mean "causes the ignition event to happen sooner in the 720 degree rotation of the 4-stroke combustion cycle," correct? it also delivers the ignition energy FASTER, for a much better sense of accuracy; plasma can reliably be aimed to hit the proverbial bullseye much more easily, I think.

                        EFIE circuit - yes, any combustion enhancement; Plasma ignition, HHO/Brown's Gas, Gadgetman Groove...you also have to be mindful that you may need to modify a MAP signal to ECU as well, if your vehicle has one.

                        Leaning an engine - this youtube video, while long and focused at aviation, has some great insight (or did for me). https://youtu.be/h3bATVXMHQg

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
                          For clarity's sake, when you say accelerate, I think you mean "causes the ignition event to happen sooner in the 720 degree rotation of the 4-stroke combustion cycle," correct? it also delivers the ignition energy FASTER, for a much better sense of accuracy; plasma can reliably be aimed to hit the proverbial bullseye much more easily, I think.

                          EFIE circuit - yes, any combustion enhancement; Plasma ignition, HHO/Brown's Gas, Gadgetman Groove...you also have to be mindful that you may need to modify a MAP signal to ECU as well, if your vehicle has one.

                          Leaning an engine - this youtube video, while long and focused at aviation, has some great insight (or did for me). https://youtu.be/h3bATVXMHQg
                          Thank you.
                          The Syncro Heresy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
                            For clarity's sake, when you say accelerate, I think you mean "causes the ignition event to happen sooner in the 720 degree rotation of the 4-stroke combustion cycle," correct? it also delivers the ignition energy FASTER, for a much better sense of accuracy; plasma can reliably be aimed to hit the proverbial bullseye much more easily, I think.

                            EFIE circuit - yes, any combustion enhancement; Plasma ignition, HHO/Brown's Gas, Gadgetman Groove...you also have to be mindful that you may need to modify a MAP signal to ECU as well, if your vehicle has one.

                            Leaning an engine - this youtube video, while long and focused at aviation, has some great insight (or did for me). https://youtu.be/h3bATVXMHQg
                            No, the electro-chemistry involved in the actual combustion process is sped up.

                            The plasma doesn't cause the ignition even to happen sooner, it will happen whenever the timing tells the ignition to fire but because the combustion chemistry happens faster, the timing can be delayed closer to TDC.

                            Yes, the plasma causes the energy to be delivered faster, which compresses the same energy in time meaning the power of the ignition is cranked up through the roof.
                            Aaron Murakami





                            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                            Comment


                            • Street Fire

                              Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                              Hi Ron,

                              As you mentioned in the emails there isn't a MSD type unit specific to the 2RZFE. However, many units like the budget MSD model Street Fire is universal and can be used on most 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engines as can the other MSD units. Very few are engine specific but are for a general type of engine. Dis-2 or 4 or whatever I used in my Subaru are for distributorless, the Street Fire can be used for points or electronic ignition that use a autotransformer coil with normal primary inputs and a high voltage output, etc.

                              The cap you mention isn't needed because if you can hook up a CDI/MSD to your engine, the cap in that unit gets discharged into the primary of your ignition coil so you have a corresponding stepup in the high voltage output that increases. So instead of 12 volts going to the primary, you'll have 400-500 volts to the primary from a low capacitance capacitor. The Street Fire unit has 89 milijoules per discharge I believe and you can find up to the 135-150 range or so.

                              Can you post a picture of your ignition coil and the cables that connect to the plugs?

                              Hi Aaron,
                              I now have my Street Fire unit and am ready to do the final hookup!
                              If you can fill me in on the rest of the hookup pointers I will greatly appreciate it!
                              Happy 4th of july!

                              Thanks,
                              Ron

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                                No, the electro-chemistry involved in the actual combustion process is sped up.

                                The plasma doesn't cause the ignition even to happen sooner, it will happen whenever the timing tells the ignition to fire but because the combustion chemistry happens faster, the timing can be delayed closer to TDC.

                                Yes, the plasma causes the energy to be delivered faster, which compresses the same energy in time meaning the power of the ignition is cranked up through the roof.
                                so "combustion happens faster at closer to TDC because the charge is more compressed" is how I'm understanding it...and yeah, the results would be remarkable.

                                Comment

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