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Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

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  • The low resistance coil that allows faster rise time from cap dumps and less energy loss from resistance works great. I'm using the Pertronix Flamethrower III that has 0.3 ohms primary and 7.5k (around that) secondary.

    The other day, Paul Babcock turned me on to a coil that is ridiculous and then I found one a bit more ridiculous.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B0006302P4

    Look at these specs - its absolutely crazy...

    Brand
    MSD
    3
    .250 mH
    45,000 Volts
    2 Amps
    .016 OHMs
    30 OHMs
    150 uS
    70:1
    3.75 lbs.
    0.016 ohms primary and 30 ohms secondary - 2 amps peak current!!! This is a beast from hell.

    What I'm wondering is with the plasma ignition - if the resistance is too low, will it allow too much from the cap to make the spark and not leave enough left over in the cap to jump the gap?

    Or will it work out fine. It depends on where the coil charges to before it switches off, which is dependent on the timing of the MSD/CDI unit triggered by the ignition.

    This coil is probably overkill, but I'll have to get one and test to see if there is any benefit, but look at those specs!!! That coil can be useful for all kinds of high efficiency hv projects.

    It is $205 delivered by Amazon on Prime, but I can't resist getting one and testing it on the Datsun and comparing it to the Pertronix Flamethrower III.

    This MSD coil has a male hv terminal so I have to modify my non-resistor coil>distributor cable or custom order one.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
      It isn't the voltage (of the HV output of the ignition coil) that can cause damage, it is the capacitance of the capacitor in the MSD/CDI you have when it jumps over the gap being ionized by the hv output from a coil. If too much capacitance, you will get such a strong current blast that you can cause damage and extremely short plug life. So stay with MSD/CDI units with voltages around 400-500 volts and about 2uf at the most. If you go over that capacitance (in that voltage range), you will get plasma blasts too big. And remember that what you see on the bench will grow a bigger in the engine when compressed air is forced on that gap to feed the plasma.

      The voltage of the HV output of the coil has to be high enough to simply get across the gap to ionize the gap so what is left in the capacitor (which is most of it) can conduct over the gap. If you have a 80kv from Granatelli that fits your car, that will work good probably but keep in mind with wasted spark coil packs, opposite sides of the engine are opposite polarity. I have a separate video presentation just for wasted spark on http://ignitionsecrets.com and that lays out exactly how I got around that problem.

      This is the exact diode I'm using on the Datsun - PRHVP2A-20 - search ebay and you can get the ridiculously cheap. $2 each (free shipping) from Hong Kong.
      Yes, I'm waste spark, but I don't have the Granatelli coils (I think the 80kV is divided between the 2 "outputs", right?); they've been placed under consideration if I should need the voltage, but I'm gathering it'll be unnecessary.

      Thanks for the part#...I'm considering chaining 2 of those for 2A 40kV, or 3 for 60kV; ~400V on a primary (however briefly) makes for quite the output voltage spike on the secondary/output side. Even for Factory coils, the 12V input turns into 20+ kV, right? if that scales in a linear fashion...

      Opposite polarity - are you saying that the plasma charge jumping from ground strap of the plug to the tip on the "negative side" of the engine doesn't happen or isn't a good thing? With the ground strap opened up and/or cut down, I can't see how the direction the energy flows across the gap is an issue, but my knowledge of electronics is limited, so reading the circuit diagrams and understanding the energy flows is a bit beyond me for right now...
      Last edited by heysoundude; 10-13-2016, 09:12 AM. Reason: clarifying my question

      Comment


      • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
        Yes, I'm waste spark, but I don't have the Granatelli coils (I think the 80kV is divided between the 2 "outputs", right?); they've been placed under consideration if I should need the voltage, but I'm gathering it'll be unnecessary.

        Thanks for the part#...I'm considering chaining 2 of those for 2A 40kV, or 3 for 60kV; ~400V on a primary (however briefly) makes for quite the output voltage spike on the secondary/output side. Even for Factory coils, the 12V input turns into 20+ kV, right? if that scales in a linear fashion...

        Opposite polarity - are you saying that the plasma charge jumping from ground strap of the plug to the tip on the "negative side" of the engine doesn't happen or isn't a good thing? With the ground strap opened up and/or cut down, I can't see how the direction the energy flows across the gap is an issue, but my knowledge of electronics is limited, so reading the circuit diagrams and understanding the energy flows is a bit beyond me for right now...
        You need a coil pack that is suitable for cap discharges AND you need to understand the polarity issue as addressed in the wasted spark plasma ignition presentation.
        Aaron Murakami





        You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
          You need a coil pack that is suitable for cap discharges AND you need to understand the polarity issue as addressed in the wasted spark plasma ignition presentation.
          The polarity thing I'm sure is in the book so i'll find it and figure that part out...but suitable coil pack - what are the determining factors? I believe the HV on my factory pack is ~25 kV...but it's not simply a voltage thing, is it? would it help if i posted specifics here, like make/model? pics/links? maybe I should just call you?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
            The polarity thing I'm sure is in the book so i'll find it and figure that part out...but suitable coil pack - what are the determining factors? I believe the HV on my factory pack is ~25 kV...but it's not simply a voltage thing, is it? would it help if i posted specifics here, like make/model? pics/links? maybe I should just call you?
            Resistance has a lot to do with it - whether or not it is suitable for cap discharge. Ask the maker of the coil if it is suitable for cap discharge.

            The reason I make the presentations is so I do not have to spend the same amount of time helping everyone individually.

            Search this thread, I posted a bit about the wasted spark issue - you need to read that.
            Aaron Murakami





            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
              Resistance has a lot to do with it - whether or not it is suitable for cap discharge. Ask the maker of the coil if it is suitable for cap discharge.

              The reason I make the presentations is so I do not have to spend the same amount of time helping everyone individually.

              Search this thread, I posted a bit about the wasted spark issue - you need to read that.
              ok, I'll go back through and read the 60 pages. and watch the videos. There's a basic knowledge/understanding that I'm obviously not absorbing (or don't have yet) in the fast paced videos...if it's even there for me to grasp, if I'm as aware/smart as I think I am.
              Seriously, once I've done the reading/watching, I'll put together and post a "shopping list" of factors and variables and their acceptable ranges; hopefully someone with admin priveleges will notice and make it a sticky. I hope you're cool with that. I'm not a big fan of barriers to progress in elevating mankind when it comes to making our wee grain of sand a better place for everyone interested in doing so.
              I've come here from the Gadgetman Groove forums - everything there seems to be more clearly delineated in terms of process. So much so that on my first grooved vehicle I've been able to achieve almost double the gov't mileage ratings, the ones that are notoriously high/ideal, and that might be because of the community leaders who handle inquiries/conversations like this so that the inventor can be largely absent. Maybe I'm so new here that I havent been able to discern who those people are yet.

              Learning circuits on!

              EDIT: I've done some research on GM's DIS coilpacks, and while I can't seem to find any peak current/voltage specs, it seems they specify a primary resistance of 0.35-1.5 ohms and 5-7k ohms on the secondary...which is in the range of your Flamethrower III, so it makes sense that there aren't any aftermarket upgrades available - they did it right on the drawing board it seems. I'm going to try and find some wiring diagrams for my vehicle next, to see if I can determine if it's a +ve or -ve spark. then it'll be a matter of making it happen. If I have to use 2 coilpacks to maintain polarity between the different banks of cylinders, I hope I can find a pair of packs that are evenly matched.
              Last edited by heysoundude; 10-18-2016, 11:50 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                The low resistance coil that allows faster rise time from cap dumps and less energy loss from resistance works great. I'm using the Pertronix Flamethrower III that has 0.3 ohms primary and 7.5k (around that) secondary.

                The other day, Paul Babcock turned me on to a coil that is ridiculous and then I found one a bit more ridiculous.

                https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B0006302P4

                Look at these specs - its absolutely crazy...

                Brand
                MSD
                3
                .250 mH
                45,000 Volts
                2 Amps
                .016 OHMs
                30 OHMs
                150 uS
                70:1
                3.75 lbs.
                0.016 ohms primary and 30 ohms secondary - 2 amps peak current!!! This is a beast from hell.

                What I'm wondering is with the plasma ignition - if the resistance is too low, will it allow too much from the cap to make the spark and not leave enough left over in the cap to jump the gap?

                Or will it work out fine. It depends on where the coil charges to before it switches off, which is dependent on the timing of the MSD/CDI unit triggered by the ignition.

                This coil is probably overkill, but I'll have to get one and test to see if there is any benefit, but look at those specs!!! That coil can be useful for all kinds of high efficiency hv projects.

                It is $205 delivered by Amazon on Prime, but I can't resist getting one and testing it on the Datsun and comparing it to the Pertronix Flamethrower III.

                This MSD coil has a male hv terminal so I have to modify my non-resistor coil>distributor cable or custom order one.
                Hello Aaron,

                Wow the specs are great idd!
                I have build in de MSD CDI 5520 and running standaard(without diodes) on it now. I have tested one spark plug with the diode and my standaard DURALAST TFI coil, this one:http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tun..._728875_17367/

                When I tested with this coil and diode the plasma spark was great! Water also give a bang. I have filmed it, will post it later.

                Do you think it will make a big differance with the MSD 8261 Pro Power HVC-2 Coil insted or the DURASPARK E-coil?
                Or the Duraspark E-coil and the Flamethrower III?

                I am a little bit busy with work, so need to make some time and fit the 8 diodes for the V8. I am very exited, i want to feel the differance, and than lean out.
                Thanks
                Nosce te Ipsum

                My Setup:
                Jeep Wagoneer V8 5.9L (360) 1979
                Standard Motorcraft 2150 2bbl carb
                Main jets size #55 stock
                Eagle Research Carb Enhancer
                Water and HHO injection with Aquatune HB plus
                MSD CDI 5520 street fire
                NGK spark plugs BP7ES(non-resistor) with sidegapping and 1.5mm gap
                Flametrower III canister ignition coil
                8x 20KV 2A PRHVP2A-20 High Voltage Rectifier Diode
                Granatelli Zero resistor spark plug wires

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Co-Creator View Post
                  Hello Aaron,

                  Wow the specs are great idd!
                  I have build in de MSD CDI 5520 and running standaard(without diodes) on it now. I have tested one spark plug with the diode and my standaard DURALAST TFI coil, this one:http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tun..._728875_17367/

                  When I tested with this coil and diode the plasma spark was great! Water also give a bang. I have filmed it, will post it later.

                  Do you think it will make a big differance with the MSD 8261 Pro Power HVC-2 Coil insted or the DURASPARK E-coil?
                  Or the Duraspark E-coil and the Flamethrower III?

                  I am a little bit busy with work, so need to make some time and fit the 8 diodes for the V8. I am very exited, i want to feel the differance, and than lean out.
                  Thanks
                  Looking forward to your results!

                  At this point, I don't think the coil will make much difference just as long as it is suitable for cap discharge.
                  Aaron Murakami





                  You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                    Looking forward to your results!

                    At this point, I don't think the coil will make much difference just as long as it is suitable for cap discharge.
                    Hello,

                    Update on my plasma project:

                    Today i finished the wires to the diode blocks. What i noticed is a very quick and smooth start! Also the engine can be started WITHOUT the CHOKE!
                    I could lower my idle rpms to a level its difficult to hear it running very smooth.
                    During driving i didnt notice an increase in torque or power, i think because the my standard ignition timing is still very advance.... think around 25 degree BTDC.
                    Next is to find the sweet spot with the timing and then going leaner.

                    Keep you posted.... Thanks!
                    Nosce te Ipsum

                    My Setup:
                    Jeep Wagoneer V8 5.9L (360) 1979
                    Standard Motorcraft 2150 2bbl carb
                    Main jets size #55 stock
                    Eagle Research Carb Enhancer
                    Water and HHO injection with Aquatune HB plus
                    MSD CDI 5520 street fire
                    NGK spark plugs BP7ES(non-resistor) with sidegapping and 1.5mm gap
                    Flametrower III canister ignition coil
                    8x 20KV 2A PRHVP2A-20 High Voltage Rectifier Diode
                    Granatelli Zero resistor spark plug wires

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Co-Creator View Post
                      Hello,

                      Update on my plasma project:

                      Today i finished the wires to the diode blocks. What i noticed is a very quick and smooth start! Also the engine can be started WITHOUT the CHOKE!
                      I could lower my idle rpms to a level its difficult to hear it running very smooth.
                      During driving i didnt notice an increase in torque or power, i think because the my standard ignition timing is still very advance.... think around 25 degree BTDC.
                      Next is to find the sweet spot with the timing and then going leaner.

                      Keep you posted.... Thanks!
                      Awesome! Would love to see a video with all of that.

                      What kind of car and engine? I don't recall if you posted that or not.

                      You can keep retarding the timing in small increments to find the ideal spot - some people even take it to tdc and in some cases, some have put the timing after tdc.
                      Aaron Murakami





                      You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                      Comment


                      • Hello Folks,

                        My car is a Jeep Wagoneer Limited 1979 AMC V8 5.9L
                        1978_Jp_Wagoneer_Limited_3q_frnt_color.jpg

                        Today, i played with the ignition timing in combination with the plasma ignition.
                        What is strange is that the motor likes as much advance as possible.
                        When i push it to TDC i get backfires. Maybe because its an old engine there is some lack on the timing chain.
                        I let it stay at maximum advance, and it has a lot more power and she's very responsive. Next is leaning out, i ordered the jets.

                        Greets
                        Nosce te Ipsum

                        My Setup:
                        Jeep Wagoneer V8 5.9L (360) 1979
                        Standard Motorcraft 2150 2bbl carb
                        Main jets size #55 stock
                        Eagle Research Carb Enhancer
                        Water and HHO injection with Aquatune HB plus
                        MSD CDI 5520 street fire
                        NGK spark plugs BP7ES(non-resistor) with sidegapping and 1.5mm gap
                        Flametrower III canister ignition coil
                        8x 20KV 2A PRHVP2A-20 High Voltage Rectifier Diode
                        Granatelli Zero resistor spark plug wires

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Co-Creator View Post
                          Hello Folks,

                          My car is a Jeep Wagoneer Limited 1979 AMC V8 5.9L


                          Today, i played with the ignition timing in combination with the plasma ignition.
                          What is strange is that the motor likes as much advance as possible.
                          When i push it to TDC i get backfires. Maybe because its an old engine there is some lack on the timing chain.
                          I let it stay at maximum advance, and it has a lot more power and she's very responsive. Next is leaning out, i ordered the jets.

                          Greets
                          That's interesting on the timing. The plasma accelerates the combustion.

                          Not sure what plugs you're using, but this company makes iridium non-resistor plugs: http://www.weaponxperformance.net/in...8eb5b649c6c130

                          I'm going to get some for the Datsun.

                          Did you leave the plugs at the recommended gap for your engine? Smaller gap will have longer life because the plasma won't get as big, but a larger gap will give a much more bigger plasma but of course shorter plug life. I'm hoping those iridium plugs will hold up longer than normal with the plasma.
                          Aaron Murakami





                          You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                          Comment


                          • I'd like to have a discussion about spark plug life

                            Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                            That's interesting on the timing. The plasma accelerates the combustion.

                            Not sure what plugs you're using, but this company makes iridium non-resistor plugs: http://www.weaponxperformance.net/in...8eb5b649c6c130

                            I'm going to get some for the Datsun.

                            Did you leave the plugs at the recommended gap for your engine? Smaller gap will have longer life because the plasma won't get as big, but a larger gap will give a much more bigger plasma but of course shorter plug life. I'm hoping those iridium plugs will hold up longer than normal with the plasma.
                            for a plasma ignition, what contributes to longer spark plug life other than gap? is it electrode material? Iridium theoretically (I assume) will last longer than platinum...but is that due to the hardness of the metal? If that's the case, shouldn't we be looking for the hardest plugs we can find?

                            http://www.extremespark.com/products.html make resistorless plugs with stainless steel electrodes, for instance...and they have fairly (stock, factory set, unchangable) huge gap to them for big plasma kernels by design. subadude uses them with his plasma ignition on his Subie, Aaron...
                            Last edited by heysoundude; 10-22-2016, 12:50 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by heysoundude View Post
                              for a plasma ignition, what contributes to longer spark plug life other than gap? is it electrode material? Iridium theoretically (I assume) will last longer than platinum...but is that due to the hardness of the metal? If that's the case, shouldn't we be looking for the hardest plugs we can find?

                              http://www.extremespark.com/products.html make resistorless plugs with stainless steel electrodes, for instance...and they have fairly (stock, factory set, unchangable) huge gap to them for big plasma kernels by design. subadude uses them with his plasma ignition on his Subie, Aaron...
                              Yes, electrode material but also geometry.

                              For materials, tungsten prototypes seemed to hold up well.

                              I want to try the iridium because they're off the shelf.

                              In Energetic Forum, some made prototypes of Robert Krupa's Firestorm plugs. That geometry holds up well - copper berrylium, etc... different ones worked well. Get this doc...

                              http://wasserwandel.info/sparkplugho...lasmaplugs.pdf

                              Extreme Spark - I know a dealer and he worked with someone at the company with some plasma tests and the plugs did not hold up very well.
                              Aaron Murakami





                              You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                              Comment


                              • great thread. answers and question were very informative

                                Comment

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