Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

[theplummer]

It does matter where you connect the diode. If you connect the diode from the coil to the top of a plug cable, any resistance in that line will eat up a lot of the potential from the capacitor. If you have too much resistance in the cable, you won't get any plasma at all. But if you connect it directly to the top of a plug, you eliminate all that resistance and wind up with as many joules as possible at the plug gap.

MSD's statement about solid core wires is because they are expecting the entire cap to be discharged into the primary because that is all they know. We're not doing that so it doesn't matter what they think.

Your belief that the whole cap has to discharge into the primary is not uncommon, but it is incorrect and this actually goes to the heart of my circuit, which is in the patent and is why my method of using the SAME CAPACITOR for BOTH the primary power source AND the low voltage high current source to jump the gap is the ONLY significant innovation in ignition history since the invention of the plasma jet ignition systems to begin with. It is also the most elegant in terms of being the simplest solution to create a plasma ignition since you do not need a separate cap charging circuit that charges a cap for the sole purpose of jumping the gap through a diode while still needing. You need a cap charging circuit for the plasma so the simplest solution is to purchase any off the shelf cdi or msd, add diodes and you're done. This obsoleted millions of dollars in patents filed by all the auto manufacturers, etc. over the last few decades who never understood that a single cap can be used for both.

If you connect the 400 volt cap to the primary and only let 1% of that capacitor discharge into the primary, you are STILL hitting the primary with 400 volts - just with less current. You do NOT need the entire capacitor to discharge in order for the primary to see 400 volts, it is automatically already there whether you use 1% of the cap or 100% of the cap - the extra capacitance will not add any more voltage than is already there, the extra capacitance will just add more current and more current is not necessary to make a spark - voltage is comes first and once it breaks down the gap resistance, then current will flow and it takes almost nothing to ionize that gap so that it is conductive enough to have a low voltage cap discharge over it.

As soon as the spark is made and the gap is ionized, 99% of whatever percentage of that cap will then discharge over the gap just fine. This is what makes my method unique - it flies in the face of what "everyone" thought was possible because countless people believe that the entire cap has to discharge to the primary including "experts" at NASA, JPL, Princeton, all the auto manufacturers and many plug manufacturers.

I did this on the bench with a MSD 6AL about 10 years ago just to test it then I gave it back to the person who loaned it to me. It doesn't matter the model because it works the same on every single one. The exception is if there is a wasted spark ignition that uses a coil pack where the primary and secondary are isolated from each other and half the pack has high voltage positive and the other side is high voltage negative. Everyone said I couldn't make my plasma method work on that too, but I did it and even did a whole presentation on this to prove it.

The only other consideration is the direction the diode is pointing and that is determined by the polarity of the HV output from the coil.

Here is a MSD Street Fire MSD on a Datsun - Street Fire is MSD's budget line but doesn't matter, I made it work on their higher end units as well.

I say 98 mj in the cap in that unit in the vid, but I believe it is 89.

You will see that I'm using the same capacitor in the MSD to charge the primary of the ignition coil and it is simultaneously being used as the low voltage source that goes through a diode to the top of a plug.

Did you purchase my Ignition Secrets package? I have a lot of videos in there showing a lot of bench tests where a single cap is used to charge the primary and is also used to jump the gap through the diode. Not sure why you would have any doubts - there is a ton of evidence in that package.

Yes I've bought your ignition secrets package, as well as scoured all the other stuff available that isn't in the package. I see where there are experiments done with just attaching from the positive to the coil, through the diode, then to the coil wire and it worked there. That's what I've done, in the interest of expediency at the dyno, becuase I was only there as a courtesy guest for a friends valuable dyno time. I didn't want to eat up half his day trying to get my stuff working.

I'm still curious why when the ignition is on, the MSD is not charging the coil, but it starts and runs on the engine. If there is no power at the orange coil wire, how can there be any cap power to transmit to the plugs. Also, apparently I was scavenging too much power from the cap, to charge the coil when it did trigger to the coil, that the coil would not charge enough to get any spark to the plugs, as it would not start, nor would the timing light pick up any spark to #1 plug.

I see many tests that show the system running normally first, then adding the plasma ignition... Is it possible that the engine must also be operational, before adding the plasma... If that's the case, this is going to make my future experimentation much more difficult in changing fuel compositions and mixture ratios.

I'm sure the MSD 6AL and your street fighter are using the same schematics, the only difference is going to be in the quality of components used, therefore, I wonder why the orange positive wire to the coil isn't getting any signal. Have you experienced such a delimma? This is on a system using the violet/green trigger wire to a MSD distributor.

[Aaron Murakami]

Three capacitors in series will result in one third of the capacitance of one of the capacitors. Three 330pf capacitors in series will result in 110pf overall and theoretically three times the voltage rating of one capacitor but it is typically difficult to balance the applied voltage across the capacitors evenly.
So theoretically if each capacitor is rated 330pf at one thousand volts then the three in series would be rated 110pf at three thousand volts.
Therefore if one capacitor is too much of a capacitive load for a circuit, then two identical capacitors in series would be half the load.

LOL, you're right - I was in a rush. My mistake.

In any case, if there is too much capacitance, it will suck up all the discharge from the coil and there will be no spark. Peaking caps for ignition purposes need to have very small capacitance.

[Aaron Murakami]

I don't mean to argue with you, but your explanations aren't making any sense.

1. Yes I'm using peaking caps from the top of the plug to ground, and three in series is too much capacitance is sucking up all the spark. wouldn't the instant the points were broken, the stored electricity (however much it built up) be discharged back into the spark plug anyway? I'm only using 3 capacitors, just as every bit of information I've seen describes to do. So you are saying in a round about way, is for me to only use one cap instead of 3 in series?

2. This really makes zero sense here. It doesn't matter where I connect the diode at, whether or not I connect it to the coil wire right out of the top of the coil, or if I go all the way to the plug, as the spark plug wire would also be back feeding the high current lower voltage and would get sucked up also. Unless I put another diode between the spark plug and the plug wire to isolate the plug wire from receiving the high current electricity, the wire will always have the same amount in it no matter where I make the connection to the system.

I've studied the MSD installation manual, and determined that the orange wire to the coil will not be charged until the capacitor discharges at the moment of triggering by the distributor. This does make sense once I've thought about it, and it seems that a msd cannot be used in this manner, without another capacitor coming directly from the 12v source. It appears that when the msd signals the capacitor to discharge to the coil, the coil needs the 400 volts to charge and discharge the coil, and taking the energy away from the coil, is reducing what it needs to properly charge to make the spark jump at the plug.

If I connect from the ignition switch positive 12v to a cap, then to the diode, then to the high voltage side of the coil (be it at the coil/distributor wire, or to each individual spark plug wire, that should charge the spark plug with the high current electricity. Now I realize that the high resistance of the plug wires may still soak up the high current electricity, and that's probably why you recommend low resistance spark plug wires. This is confusing because MSD says specifically NOT to use solid core spark plug wires as they will cause the MSD to malfunction.

If you've actually used a MSD 6AL, do you have a video showing it actually working on a vehicle that I can watch?

It does matter where you connect the diode. If you connect the diode from the coil to the top of a plug cable, any resistance in that line will eat up a lot of the potential from the capacitor. If you have too much resistance in the cable, you won't get any plasma at all. But if you connect it directly to the top of a plug, you eliminate all that resistance and wind up with as many joules as possible at the plug gap.

MSD's statement about solid core wires is because they are expecting the entire cap to be discharged into the primary because that is all they know. We're not doing that so it doesn't matter what they think.

Your belief that the whole cap has to discharge into the primary is not uncommon, but it is incorrect and this actually goes to the heart of my circuit, which is in the patent and is why my method of using the SAME CAPACITOR for BOTH the primary power source AND the low voltage high current source to jump the gap is the ONLY significant innovation in ignition history since the invention of the plasma jet ignition systems to begin with. It is also the most elegant in terms of being the simplest solution to create a plasma ignition since you do not need a separate cap charging circuit that charges a cap for the sole purpose of jumping the gap through a diode while still needing. You need a cap charging circuit for the plasma so the simplest solution is to purchase any off the shelf cdi or msd, add diodes and you're done. This obsoleted millions of dollars in patents filed by all the auto manufacturers, etc. over the last few decades who never understood that a single cap can be used for both.

If you connect the 400 volt cap to the primary and only let 1% of that capacitor discharge into the primary, you are STILL hitting the primary with 400 volts - just with less current. You do NOT need the entire capacitor to discharge in order for the primary to see 400 volts, it is automatically already there whether you use 1% of the cap or 100% of the cap - the extra capacitance will not add any more voltage than is already there, the extra capacitance will just add more current and more current is not necessary to make a spark - voltage is comes first and once it breaks down the gap resistance, then current will flow and it takes almost nothing to ionize that gap so that it is conductive enough to have a low voltage cap discharge over it.

As soon as the spark is made and the gap is ionized, 99% of whatever percentage of that cap will then discharge over the gap just fine. This is what makes my method unique - it flies in the face of what "everyone" thought was possible because countless people believe that the entire cap has to discharge to the primary including "experts" at NASA, JPL, Princeton, all the auto manufacturers and many plug manufacturers.

I did this on the bench with a MSD 6AL about 10 years ago just to test it then I gave it back to the person who loaned it to me. It doesn't matter the model because it works the same on every single one. The exception is if there is a wasted spark ignition that uses a coil pack where the primary and secondary are isolated from each other and half the pack has high voltage positive and the other side is high voltage negative. Everyone said I couldn't make my plasma method work on that too, but I did it and even did a whole presentation on this to prove it.

The only other consideration is the direction the diode is pointing and that is determined by the polarity of the HV output from the coil.

Here is a MSD Street Fire MSD on a Datsun - Street Fire is MSD's budget line but doesn't matter, I made it work on their higher end units as well.

I say 98 mj in the cap in that unit in the vid, but I believe it is 89.

You will see that I'm using the same capacitor in the MSD to charge the primary of the ignition coil and it is simultaneously being used as the low voltage source that goes through a diode to the top of a plug.

Did you purchase my Ignition Secrets package? I have a lot of videos in there showing a lot of bench tests where a single cap is used to charge the primary and is also used to jump the gap through the diode. Not sure why you would have any doubts - there is a ton of evidence in that package.

[theplummer]

1. Were the caps going from the top of the plug to the engine ground? If so, then you are trying to simply add peaking caps to the plug. With 3 in series, probably too much capacitance and sucked up all the spark so there isn't anything to jump the gap.

2. On the MSD with diodes, the diode needs to go from positive of primary of coil directly to the top of the plug bypassing the entire distributor and cable or the resistances will eat it up. Also, you have to verify the polarity of the HV of your ignition coil. That will determine which direction the diodes need to be facing.

I don't mean to argue with you, but your explanations aren't making any sense.

1. Yes I'm using peaking caps from the top of the plug to ground, and three in series is too much capacitance is sucking up all the spark. wouldn't the instant the points were broken, the stored electricity (however much it built up) be discharged back into the spark plug anyway? I'm only using 3 capacitors, just as every bit of information I've seen describes to do. So you are saying in a round about way, is for me to only use one cap instead of 3 in series?

2. This really makes zero sense here. It doesn't matter where I connect the diode at, whether or not I connect it to the coil wire right out of the top of the coil, or if I go all the way to the plug, as the spark plug wire would also be back feeding the high current lower voltage and would get sucked up also. Unless I put another diode between the spark plug and the plug wire to isolate the plug wire from receiving the high current electricity, the wire will always have the same amount in it no matter where I make the connection to the system.

I've studied the MSD installation manual, and determined that the orange wire to the coil will not be charged until the capacitor discharges at the moment of triggering by the distributor. This does make sense once I've thought about it, and it seems that a msd cannot be used in this manner, without another capacitor coming directly from the 12v source. It appears that when the msd signals the capacitor to discharge to the coil, the coil needs the 400 volts to charge and discharge the coil, and taking the energy away from the coil, is reducing what it needs to properly charge to make the spark jump at the plug.

If I connect from the ignition switch positive 12v to a cap, then to the diode, then to the high voltage side of the coil (be it at the coil/distributor wire, or to each individual spark plug wire, that should charge the spark plug with the high current electricity. Now I realize that the high resistance of the plug wires may still soak up the high current electricity, and that's probably why you recommend low resistance spark plug wires. This is confusing because MSD says specifically NOT to use solid core spark plug wires as they will cause the MSD to malfunction.

If you've actually used a MSD 6AL, do you have a video showing it actually working on a vehicle that I can watch?

[Aaron Murakami]

1. Were the caps going from the top of the plug to the engine ground? If so, then you are trying to simply add peaking caps to the plug. With 3 in series, probably too much capacitance and sucked up all the spark so there isn't anything to jump the gap.

2. On the MSD with diodes, the diode needs to go from positive of primary of coil directly to the top of the plug bypassing the entire distributor and cable or the resistances will eat it up. Also, you have to verify the polarity of the HV of your ignition coil. That will determine which direction the diodes need to be facing.