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Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

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  • Hi,
    I thought I would give a short update with regard to my plasma ignition conversion on our 1979 Bedford camper and share some info on ignition wires I found looking for a replacement to go with Aaron's plasma ignition.

    I have converted the points to a hall pickup which runs nice and stable. Then recently I have installed an MSD 6A ignition module. Big difference on idle running, some more torgue low end.
    I have 4 40Kv Ham diodes that need connecting now to finish the plasma ignition. So with this last step in Aaron's plasma conversion new ignition wires must come since the current are solid core which does not work well with an MSD ignition.

    Looking into decent ignition wires there is quite a bit to read about. I'm looking into spirally wound wires but there is quite a bit of difference in the resistance of several brands.

    MSD superconductor with 40-50 ohms in a 12"lenght.
    Magnecor has seemingly good info on ignition wires here I am looking ate the Powersports. It has 98ohm per cm or 3000 Ohm/ft
    Aurora electronics has a nice article on understanding ignition wires here 400ohms/ft

    RMI/EFI suppression seems quite important for modern vehicles, Magnecor and Aurora are probably really good at that, however at a relatively high price. The MSD wires are really low resistance but perhaps not as good suppressors. I am however not sure how important RMI/EFI on a carburated vehicle like ours is. It would be nice to be able to listen to the radio when plasma spark is present. I have no experience with that yet, only on generators.

    So perhaps if there are people that are already running a plasma setup in their vehicle they can report shortly on RFI issues.

    I know that Aaron has had made a custom ignition wire set but I don't know the details of those. I haven't experimented with different types of ignition wire and thus do not know how important they really are for plasma systems. However, a strong ignition system as this should have decent wires to deliver that energy to the plugs, right?

    I know Magnecor make custom sets on order (other too probably) so perhaps they are able to incorporate a second wire to the spark plug boot to go to the HV diode. I will email them hereafter with this. Will let you know when I know more.

    Any feedback on ignition wire selection is appreciated!
    Last edited by Floris; 09-24-2013, 02:56 AM. Reason: spelling

    Comment


    • Update: I had a chat with Magnecor UK and they would be willing to fit an extra wire to the spark plug boot side. That is great because then I have and new cables with a decent connection of our HV diode and then to the coil. This should make a very clean installation.

      I think I will go for this route.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Floris View Post
        Update: I had a chat with Magnecor UK and they would be willing to fit an extra wire to the spark plug boot side. That is great because then I have and new cables with a decent connection of our HV diode and then to the coil. This should make a very clean installation.

        I think I will go for this route.
        Hi Floris,

        Interesting the silence on the thread when it comes to certain things, like what you were asking about - the RF and ignition wire.

        A few pages back you will find the replication data of SUBADUDE regarding the ignition wire mod he has done with step by step pics and so - they helped me A LOT.

        Lets just apply some plain logic here: you are right that with that MSD you need propper wires (even without plasma), and Aaron since the beginning stressed the importance of ZERO resistance. The magnecores are TO HIGH, although they will suppress the RF/EMI.

        But people FORGET: the HV has TWO paths to ground - 1) High resistance spark plug gap, and 2) Low resistance coil positive... if you where HV, which path would you take?

        Ok, so path of LEAST resistance, so now the HV runs from the plug over that second wire you have connected to the plug center to the diode block; diodew closes and HV bundles up there, and now only has the high resistance path left to ground over the spark gap, and like an uncoiling spring shoots in the opposite direction away from diode towards that gap, at say 5 to 10 times faster that the origional HV capacitive discharge speed.

        Now that second wire is not "conducting" that "hv", because its no longer "hv", because it runs ON TOP of that wire's surface at that speed, since the wire core is too high a resistance path at that speed, and that "super-boosted hv" also is radiating outward away from that wire like an inter-galactic "antenna"... but its not only calling ET, see...

        So, although people get the low-resistance RF protection right on the HV plug wires, the forget about that second wire... and it radiates out any type of electromagnetic and other radio waves... you wont even hear if ET answered you back on your car radio - damn...

        You dig me bro? I might be considered a "radical" or "nut" for pointing this out, but every plasma replicationist has to deal with that, and EVERY ONE of that doesn't has from mild no-serious to bad RF/EMI (or Radient Energy for those in the know) problems.

        I'm trying out a DIY replication myself, and I'm now EXACTLY at this point where my ignition plug wires are the best I can ever manage in the Republic of South Africa, but the wire running to the diode string I got, NOT... so much so that if I stall my car, the imobilizer won't let me restart my kar, UNLESS I disconnect the diode string and un run it without plasma ignition.

        Previously I said I'd upload stuff on my replication, but I've got absolutely nothing new that has not already been shown and explained - and my friend SUBADUDE earlier in the thread helped me back on this path.

        What I can tell you for now is the following which might be interesting:
        - I'm using the new Shell Nitro 93/95 octane gasoline (cause there's more hydrogen per molecule and will not pre-ignite)
        - My HV ignition wire is imported and has stranded core with copper braiding in the insollation, grounded to the engine block - longest one of them measures 400 Ohm tip to tip.
        - Zero resistance NGK (plugs without the R in the plug number)

        Just that on its own gives me a minimum of 5.17% improvement in fuel consumption, and I have NOT yet redone the carb air/fuel mix and timing tuning.

        More info than that is just going to draw out endless and worthless discussions - like I said, most of what is needed to apply have been previously discussed by Aaron and others.

        I'm by no means a master at Plasma Jet Ignition by far, otherwise I wouldn't have had the RF problem. But I will help if I can, and if I can't will say so.

        O ja, before I forget - my car is a 1999 Fiat Uno 1.4, and with all the extra now unnecessary fuel going to the engine, when the diode string is connected, my have to be very carefull with my foot on the excellerator pedal... we are just outside Johannesburg at 10,000 feet above see level, so not much help from atmosferic air pressure, but with the plasma the engine is more powerful and has more torque THAN STANDARD SPEC...

        I can't wait to get to my mechanic friend that has the machine to fine tune the air/fuel mix and timing, because the old engine is old and was not manufactured to handle the extra power imposed on its mechanical components... so with plasma, I can have it de-tuned back to spec power and torque output, which should give me say 20% plus fuel saving.

        And that is without the Torque Master spark plugs that I've ordered a long time ago - I think I give them unnecessary trouble by insisting it must be NON-RESISTOR... and since my car is NOT available anywhere in the world but South Africa.

        So in the mean while, I'm going to rap my diode string wire in thick foil (type used for baking with) and electrically isolate that by putting fish tank type cheap silicone piping over them.

        Since its the RF/EMI where many of our fellow plasma jet replicatees bogg-down, that is what I will report back to about if successful - if not back in 2-3 weeks, you'll know I fried myself cause I did some stupid thing!

        May The Right Forces Be With Us All ! ! !

        Comment


        • Feedback on PJI Replication:

          On a exhaust gas analyzer that measures on its dial from 0 (most lean) to 7 (most rich) that the previous owner of my 1.4 Fiat Uno Mia had the carburetor idle mix adjusted so rich that the needle run off the dial i.o.w. 7+.

          I was already getting an improvement for in-town driving from home to work of 9.8 Km/L to 10.9 after installing my DIY PJI, but suspected something's off since I couldn't manage to start the car with the manual choke and the idle revolutions grew higher and higher as the engine warmed up.

          Then I visited my mechanic friend... and found the above mentioned outness. His experienced opinion was that an Uno can't get better than about 10 km/L in town, so I really had to hold myself in not to blabber out the truth, but he AGREED that the over-rich idle setting was totally wrong, and tuned it down a bit.

          So to his amazement, and thinking that his equipment is faulty, he kept on reducing the richness with the dial on his machine dropping and dropping. Then he eventually just shook his head and stopped to settle it on 1.5 - well, I do not now what it means in automotive terms and so, but it was reduction in idle fuel wastage of OVER 78 percent in my understanding.

          The choke cable does not pull the choke far enough so it seems to make the car able to start cold, the previous owner had the carburetor idle adjusted rich until he could manage to start the car cold - and all along I never checked that "trivial" matter!

          The latest update on my consumption is that it improved to between 12 and 14.5 Km/L mixed driving... which just confuses the whole issue, since i never had a true baseline to work from, to begin with, since the old in-town measure was 7.2 Km/L and highway measure was 9.6 Km/L on a completely wrong carb setting... not that idling influences steady speed on the highway, but messes up all engine and exhaust track surfaces and in oil with carbon deposits and other rubbish.

          So, considering that better combustion deposits less rubbish on surfaces and in the oil, and that it produces much more hot water vapor that cleans the old rubbish out, I have managed to get quite a number of advantages, anyhow.

          And that is with STANDARD non-R spark plugs - seams like my Torque Masters got lost in the shipment from USA to South Africa - terrible time to try and locate them at SA customs.

          Back to drawing board:

          Current PJI experiences linear voltage drop all the way as the revs pick up, which means that if it could keep the volts say up to 6000 RPM at least - GUESS? I'll be working that and then its off to the Dyno Guy... Before I had the idle mix leaned out, the Uno had so much power and torque with the PJI that it all most became dangerous to touch the throttle... I should've had that checked then on the Dyno, hey? But, now I know a couple of things I never did and I'm much closer to My Dream: toggle for either Power Boost or Economy!!!

          Keep studying your Ignitions Secrets - all the answers are in there in this forum... then APPLY and learn MUCH MORE!!!
          Last edited by Willem Coetzee; 10-29-2013, 06:31 AM.

          Comment


          • please have a look at this page of NGK spark plugs:

            http://www.ngkntk.co.jp/english/prod...ugs/index.html

            if you scroll down you'll see two interesting spark plugs:

            - the Creeping discharge plug
            - the Plug for rotary engines

            what do you think? are they suitable for plasma ignition?

            Comment


            • Hi Aaron,

              Thank you very much for sharing the links of your work. I want to know the number of your US Patent of your plasma discharge system if you do not mind?

              Best Wishes, Hermes

              Comment


              • Originally posted by hermesatar View Post
                Hi Aaron,

                Thank you very much for sharing the links of your work. I want to know the number of your US Patent of your plasma discharge system if you do not mind?

                Best Wishes, Hermes
                Hi Hermes,

                http://www.google.com/patents/US8555867

                A little note on the patent since most people don't know. Originally, I open sourced all of this in the Water Sparkplug threads at energeticforum.com. I put together Ignition Secrets at http://ignitionsecrets.com and while putting together the book, I was giving proper dedications to people who were part of that movement. I searched Google to make sure I was spelling someone's name correctly and what came up??? A patent application for my very specific method for the plasma circuits with that person's name on it claiming to be the inventor.

                That application and patent actually has 3 inventions - ionization detection method, coin on plug method and then my very specific method of using the CDI cap as both the power source for the primary of ignition coil and the low voltage supply simultaneously that they all said wouldn't work.

                After a battle, my name is on the patent for my own invention that nobody else had anything to do with.

                This was before the "first to apply" law was signed, before that, it was "first to invent". Many people think when you post something publicly that it can't be patented. Not true. You can post it in public view - but you have up to 1 year from that date "priority date" to file the patent.

                Anyway, there you have it.
                Aaron Murakami





                You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                Comment


                • Hi Aaron,

                  Thanks for the Patentnumber! I now understand your invention better...I am curious about one thing. In your

                  Water Sparkplug Test on Lawnmower - YouTube does your invention actually burn water? I am wondering if I really see a waterpowered lawnmower? Of course you did not put a load on the lawnmower so it is impossible to see if it is really overunity...?

                  Best Wishes, Hermes

                  Comment


                  • Hi Aaron,

                    Great to see you have patented it.... who are the other two guys (co-Inventors) I see that they hail from India...
                    Best Regards,
                    Faraday88.
                    'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hermesatar View Post
                      Hi Aaron,

                      Thanks for the Patentnumber! I now understand your invention better...I am curious about one thing. In your

                      Water Sparkplug Test on Lawnmower - YouTube does your invention actually burn water? I am wondering if I really see a waterpowered lawnmower? Of course you did not put a load on the lawnmower so it is impossible to see if it is really overunity...?

                      Best Wishes, Hermes
                      Hi Hermes,

                      That lawnmower is running on just a small amount of gasoline from the idle jet.

                      That patent has 3 inventions, the coil on plug deal, the ionization detection circuit - both of those I had nothing to do with. To save money, they put all 3 inventions into one patent application. I'm the only one that had anything to do with my concept of using the same cap for CDI input and the low voltage power supply simultaneously.
                      Aaron Murakami





                      You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                      Comment


                      • I tested this plasma on my car with one plug and it worked great. So then I went to put it on all 4 plugs, but I think i wired it wrong. It went from + LV of coil then to diode string then split into 4 wires that then went to the sparkplugs. I then tried to start the car and it did not start. So, I took it all apart and tried the same way I first got the plasma, and no spark at all. If i disconnect the diode sting, i get cdi spark. I tried the diode string both directions. I also tried a new diode string both directions and still no plasma and no spark. Did I damage something? My car WILL start as normal without plasma setup. Any ideas?

                        Comment


                        • Hi Bradford,

                          1) check the charging circuit

                          2) check the capacitor condition..

                          Rgds,

                          Faraday88.
                          'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

                          Comment


                          • I still get cdi sparks and the weaker normal coil sparks when the diodes are disconnected. I use a MSD street fire cdi. Could it still be this MSD cdi that is the problem if I can get the bigger cdi sparks? Also, I changed the diode strings from long straight lines to bent back and forth. (Side by side diodes) to make it shorter. Would this stop plasma?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bradford View Post
                              I still get cdi sparks and the weaker normal coil sparks when the diodes are disconnected. I use a MSD street fire cdi. Could it still be this MSD cdi that is the problem if I can get the bigger cdi sparks? Also, I changed the diode strings from long straight lines to bent back and forth. (Side by side diodes) to make it shorter. Would this stop plasma?
                              The diode string shape won't make a difference. When the diodes are connected you just get a weak spark can only be a few things but is usually from blown diode(s). If the plasma worked with one plug, the at least you know it works with that coil and the polarity is correct.

                              When you have the plasma on one plug - you just had the plug on top of valve cover or something to see that it actually makes the plasma?

                              Should work like you described but for a car, I'd make a good connection from the + of the ignition coil and run a separate string to the top of each plug - if you don't and the diodes hold up probably fine but it would reduce the workout the diodes get.
                              Aaron Murakami





                              You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                              Comment


                              • Hi Aaron. I had one sparkplug out on valve cover (first attempt). It was awesome, loud and bright flashes and it would explode water. After 2nd attempt trying all 4 plugs, car wouldn't start. So i went back to just one plug as in first attempt. I get no spark with diodes connected. But I get cdi sparks with diodes disconnected. I'm wondering if I messed something up. I had all sparkplugs connected at their tops and then to diode string (30 diodes 6A 1000v each) then to + LV.

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